It has been said that MMORPGs bring the dynamics of table-top role-playing closer to reality. What if, someone WANTS to be killed as part of a temporary fusion-spell to help defeat a monster? Let''s say, the spirt is a benificiary if a certain ritual is performed first (like suggested). Wouldn''t that be cool? Because I don''t see Everquest doing anything like that.

Link still works for me.

Personally, I like the idea of perma-death as an option to gaining something the non-permas don''t have. Balancing would be an issue of course, but not impossible. The difficulty would be in ensuring that deaths due to uncontrollable circumstances don''t happen too often - lag, game bugs, etc. Or you could just say if you want to play a perma-death character you live with the possible consequences.

Another idea is to force characters into a perma-death mode in order to rise above a certain level. Say after level 50 your character automatically goes into perma-death mode. Or make it an option and the player can continue to play the level 50 character in non-perma mode but will never get any higher. The only thing he could do is get better loot or get better at a trade or something similar.

It''ll be interesting to see how some of the games the people in the discussion turn out.

If you are going to do Perma-Death, you need to at least make it interesting...


A developer can''t put Perma-Death in a game just to have perma-death. Even though the players may expect it, when it actually happens and the player now has nothing left, he/she will probably not want to start up a new character.

You need to give some kind of relief to players who''s characters have died. You can''t expect them to start from scratch everytime. Something like a behind the scenes apprentice that will at least be a playable character when you finally have to play him when the players original character dies.

And even though your character is permanently dead, doesn''t mean we still can''t have fun with it. Being able to haunt an area or person(aka, your killer) with your ghost or spirit every now and then would be entertaining. You could also have a place similar in respect to Hades, where dead people can chat and bs with each other. Heck, you could even have a quest to resurrect your old self, in a rotten undead kind of way.

Perma-Death could be cool if you can do it right.

I think one thing that would have to be done before permadeth is implemented is to have NPC guards, bounty hunters, etc that will hunt down people that constantly kill other players. They shouldn''t automatically know that the person is killing, but maybe when somebody dies they let out a scream and the nearest guards come running to see who did it or something like that. You would need hunters of all levels though so a player can''t just get high level and start killing everything (though they do need to feel powerfull at high levels).

You also need to make a good experience system so there can be places n00bs go where high level players probably won''t go often (not to get experience/skill points/etc anyways). The problem is that the area can''t feel like it was ''designed for n00bs'' because then immesion isn''t as great and it feels artificial. There needs to be maybe an Orc tribe full of weaklings for n00bs to fight off or something like that.

if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.

Think of how its done in Single-Player games. Here are the two save/load concepts in single player games that I can think of:

- Quick-saving - You save, go in and die, and load and try the same thing again (Splinter Cell, Monkey Island)
- Point-saving - Finish a level or stage of the game and you get to save (FF, Diablo''s quest system, Mario World).


I''d write more, but I really have to go... Someone can continue for me if wanted.

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- Rob Loach
Current Project: Upgrade to .NET and DirectX 9
Percent Complete: X%

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Original post by krez
if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.

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Diablo 2 comes to mind.

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- Rob Loach
Current Project: Upgrade to .NET and DirectX 9
Percent Complete: X%

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Original post by Rob Loach
Diablo 2 comes to mind.

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yah? i never played it... how''d it work out, as far as balance and whatnot?

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Original post by spearson69
A developer can''t put Perma-Death in a game just to have perma-death.

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Why not? If that''s what they want, they can do it. Whether or not it is a selling point or a turn-off is another matter. It would depend on how it''s done.

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Original post by spearson69
Even though the players may expect it, when it actually happens and the player now has nothing left, he/she will probably not want to start up a new character.

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Perhaps, perhaps not. I probably wouldn''t play a game where perma-death is the only option, but if it''s an option, then the player lives with the consequences if he sets the character as a perma-death.

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Original post by spearson69
You need to give some kind of relief to players who''s characters have died. You can''t expect them to start from scratch everytime.

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Again, why not?

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Original post by spearson69
Something like a behind the scenes apprentice that will at least be a playable character when you finally have to play him when the players original character dies.

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These are ideas, but not requirements. If a developer doesn''t do something like this, you can''t say it''s wrong. If perma-death means perma-death (duh!) then, again, the player suffers the consequences if he chooses to play with that option.

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Original post by spearson69
Perma-Death could be cool if you can do it right.

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Everyone''s definition of right is different however. Yours might not match mine. Ultimately it''s what the developer decides is right. If people don''t think it''s right then they won''t buy the game.

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Original post by Extrarius
I think one thing that would have to be done before permadeth is implemented is to have NPC guards, bounty hunters, etc that will hunt down people that constantly kill other players. They shouldn''t automatically know that the person is killing, but maybe when somebody dies they let out a scream and the nearest guards come running to see who did it or something like that. You would need hunters of all levels though so a player can''t just get high level and start killing everything (though they do need to feel powerfull at high levels).

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Why would this have to be done? If you allow PvP (with or without restrictions), that''s a risk you take. If you choose to set your character to perma-death, you suffer the consequences. Personally I wouldn''t allow PvP just anywhere, so it wouldn''t be a problem. If you enter a PvP area with perma-death on, you take the risk and suffer the consequences. It''s up to the player to determine if the consequences are worth the risk, not the developer to protect the player if he chooses to take the risk. Then it''s not a risk.

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Original post by Extrarius
You also need to make a good experience system so there can be places n00bs go where high level players probably won''t go often (not to get experience/skill points/etc anyways).

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This is PvP realted - a whole separate issue than perma-death.

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Original post by krez
if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.

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An interesting option.

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Original post by Rob Loach
Think of how its done in Single-Player games. Here are the two save/load concepts in single player games that I can think of:

- Quick-saving - You save, go in and die, and load and try the same thing again (Splinter Cell, Monkey Island)
- Point-saving - Finish a level or stage of the game and you get to save (FF, Diablo''s quest system, Mario World).

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Not sure how this is relevant to MMO games, perhaps it''s just the caffeine?

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Original post by krez
if perma-death were an option at character creation, then players who choose to use perma-death could enjoy the benefits of leveling at a higher rate (or to you "i hate levels" people, their skills could increase faster than an equivalent non-perma-death charater). that way, a player can choose to not advance as quickly, but not have to worry about dying forever.

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Unfortunately, this allows all players (perma-death and normal) to obtain the same exact rewards (whether that be levels, items, etc). I think the key to a good perma-death implementationg is the option to be perma-death with a reward system that grants special rewards that cannot be attained at all through non-perma-death modes. It can''t be just quicker rewards ... that doesn''t make the option worth the risk.