I feel for NeHe. He provides alot, and recieves little. But lets remember that it is his choice. I would hope that some nice software development company would make him an offer he couldnt refuse - Im sure with persistance that will happen one day.

Onto the topic of education. Its seems there are a great many people here touting the ''Ive learnt it all by myself'' slogan. Thats great, but its pretty likely you picked up a great deal of bad habits and poor engineering discilpines along the way. Thats one benefit of a good education - you get to learn good, well tried and tested software engineering priniciples. The number of people I know who dont even do simple white-box and block-box testing is amazing, and yet it saves so much time.

Myself I have been learning programming since the c64 and the spectrum came about. But I would never class myself as a progammer on that basis alone. Sitting at home programming some pretty graphics is not the same as working for a game developer. The pressures are different and the rewards are different, and the skills learnt are very different.

The use of skills gained for tertiary education, is not about what wonderful c/c++ code you can create, its more about learning how to be a productive and efficient coder with a good understanding of the whole development process - from design to testing.

To the person who said that because he earns 120K a year, he is proof of ''learn at home'' works. I find this to be quite funny. I actually worked under some Technical Directors(read very well paid), who because of their ''sub standard'' code had been promoted out of the programming team to a more management driven role. Now, this doesnt mean you are. But my point is, that holding a high position with a high salary neither confirms or denys your ability to code based on your education or lack of it.

I have worked for some good, and some bad game companys. And especially in the bad company''s, it was the people who had got in the door first and been promoted that ended up with the nice wages. The grunts at the bottom, ended up with little. While at the good company''s, you get paid for your talent/capabilities - yes, there are good ones out there and I thank them greatly for allowing me to be part of them.

I hope NeHe does end up in a quality company, because in my view he deserves it, because he has shown a great deal of commitment, talent and charity.

This is the bottom line ,either you stay underground or sligtly above water as a indie developer with self-taught skills or you take your self taught skills and take college classes graduate and become a professional developer even if your skills dont improve "just because of the peice of paper" you will be able to get a better job ,its not whos smarter its who actually took the time to make themselves available to be picked for a high paying job.

Think of it this way you can be bigger and better than any programmer ,but your not gonna get what you want or diserve unless work for it and by work for it i mean get that peice of paper.



Hello

Having had 6 years programming experience from a self-taught perspective I went to university to get a degree, why, it''s not that companies generally believe that self-taught people have less skills than those taught at university, it just they believe people who went through university and graduated have a better working mentality, I know this is usually bull, but quite a few companies believe that if you''ve worked your way through university you are less likely to be a sad pathetic loner who simply can''t work in teams.

WDA

quote:

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Original post by Anonymous Poster
so Extrarius, if you are so genious wtf are you doing in school ?

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I'm not a genious, I just have a lot(compared to all the other programmers I'm going to school with anyways) of experience from programming as a hobby for many years. I'm going to school because I want to get to classes where I'm learning something, and I want to eventually get my PhD so I can make lots of money.

My point was that college doesn't neccessarily expand your horizons in programming. If you've done research to see what is the best way to store data for a game, for example, you've probably been exposed to linked lists, trees, etc. If you're going for a 2 year degree, you won't get exposed to much more theory than that (at least not at the college I'm going to). If all you do is read tutorials and copy the code, then you probably won't know about any theory at all, but you're not really a programmer either if all you can do is copy tutorial code and compile it.
Being self-taught gives you time to have experience before you get a job doing it, and generally experience teaches better than lectures do.

[edited by - Extrarius on March 14, 2003 11:04:10 AM]

obviously not a genius heh.. no offence intended at all because im obviously not a genius either .. yeah your right about companies not only looking for experience they are looking for a label there is no way around it as of yet and you will never be able to change it , so change your ideals or you probably never become a professional.

quote:

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Original post by K-1
Finally someone that shares my view! I thought everyone was on the self-taught side.

Nothing can beat a college education. It doesn''t matter how many years you''ve spent reading books. When it comes down to it, good, readable, forward-looking code can only come from someone with a degree. And only with that degree can you seriously call yourself a Software Engineer or programmer. Otherwise, you''re just a hack who has been coding for a long time. There''s a lot more to being a programmer than just writing code, I hope you guys realize that.

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Please dont get me wrong. I''ve been to college. I know how it goes. That is why I am so bent on self-taught. College would be great if it were not for the fact that there is so much crap that you have to sit through before you get anywhere. Then to top it off, the pace of the course is set by th eslowest person (usually) and it just drags by. I got so bored I quit. Wasted $2k on books and my classes because I was bored. My mind works faster than most, that is why I beleive in being self-taught, I can go at my own pace which is very fast.

Please do not label me as a code hacker, I am a genuine Software Engineer. I know it takes more than hacking code to be a programmer. Alot of fore thought, planning, theory, skills, managment etc. etc. I''ve been doing this for 11 years on my own and I have gained certifications (aprox. 20) in the programming/development area. I just feel college needs to change before it can be truley useful. To much BS to much polotics and not enough efficiency. Trade school would be the way I will go when I decide that it''s time to get that peice of paper. As for the peice of paper, I do not feel it is a great benchmark to measure ones skill level and think it is unfair in most cases as someone was saying that they were throwing away anything with a gpa less than 3.0. GPS means that you can turn in your homework and do your assignments, it does not mean you are qualified.



Dustin Davis
Owner / CEO
Programmers Unlimited
www.Programmers-Unlimited.com

[My Opinion]
Also, with attending college, you get boxed in to their theories and methods, and very little people can look beyond those and go further, they are stuck. With being self-taught, yes you only do the things you find interesting and fun, but you also gain the ability to teach yourself. You find ways to help yourself learn so that if something new comesup in your job, you can learn it no problem. This is very valuable to me as I have learned so many new things with my current job. The ability to grow and expand i feel is not gained from schooling. You are taught set ways and you may never experience any others. Plus I feel the self gratification of learning something on your own is worth it all.

Dustin Davis
Owner / CEO
Programmers Unlimited
www.Programmers-Unlimited.com

i recently graduated from college with a BS in CS and looking back, I was never taught how to just code. I was taught how to problem solve. Sure my first six courses covered Java and C++, in that order, with a little C thrown in, after that all upper graduate work was in C++ (mostly, a little Java), but at that point, you are on your own and YOU have to make sure that you get your code down right to SOLVE problems that the profs give you. No one is holding your hand and telling you what a class is or what functions to use (well sometimes a little bit). But still, even if your code correctly solves a problem/implements and algorithm, etc. no one is going to tell you how well your code was written. They just script the shit and test it against their own results.

My point is that to write good clean code takes practice and a lot of self determination and had work. Having to go through the trials of a college degree can help you get there. Moreover a college degree in CompSci, doesn''t just expose you to code, but also to the theory behind computer science (turing machines, DFA, NFA''s, a little hardware, discreet math, stats, calculus, physics -- i know not all of these fall under the term "theory of compsci")

I would highly recommend a college degree, but anyone who says a college degree teaches you how to code well is wrong, only practice, trial and error and actually getting some feedback on your code from people that know what they are doing can help.

If you can do it, go to school. Here in the US, a four-year university is about life experience and well-rounded education. It''s not a specialized tech degree. It sounds like some of you get bored with the pace and the other stuff you have to take. My experience was that once I got the lower level classes out of the way, computer science became _really_ fun.

Computer science isn''t a coder''s degree -- it''s a problem solver''s degree. You''ll get exposed to a lot of different things, at the cost of some depth into industrial languages like C++ and Java. You''ll learn them, but not inside-out. So people coming out of college with a degree may not be the best C++ coders in the world, but they understand concepts fundamental to programming languages and problem solving. That knowledge transcends current technologies and will bre useful throughout their careers.

Some of you are too full of yourselves to reap the benefits of an education. You have the wrong attitude. The goal of classes aren''t to find the shortest path to an A. Go to learn. If you aren''t learning something, challenge yourself by reading ahead or researching the topics further. If you can control your ego long enough to sit though a course, you may learn something -- and if you don''t, it''s wholly your own fault.

And finally, any degree pays dividends in the future. When the market gets tight (as it has been), you''ll do yourself no harm by being more fully qualified in the eyes of your potential employers. When your children reach high school and beyond, your example will speak volumes about the importance of an education. If you ever want to change careers, degrees are important in most professional fields.

I think it''s worth it.

If your university isn''t up to date then you are in wrong place for CS studies. Real polytechnical/technical universities/colleges are high up to date AND they have some of the best guys of the industry teaching. And I mean good guy, my current prof was one of the originals who were submitting to the initial Linux kernel. And you know what? That guy know his shit.

Another thing is, that in universities, you also get broader education. After 9 years of self taught programming, perhaps you are good, but you''ll be missing the general education, which is always good for you. The guy I was talking about can read and write 32 bit x86 assembler like I write books, but he isn''t only good in the field of IT, he also studies philosophy. Now he is creating some wierd programming model with MIT, which is supposed to make out code error free.

Now those who say universities are worthless are simply wrong. If you''d have actually gone to university, you''d know so much more that you simply could not agree with that statement. Besides ANYONE can bust their ass at home and read books, but not everyone CAN and are WILLING to spend time in university where they could actually do something worthy.