Everyone who is saying that programming is not math should pick up a book on discrete math. First off, no one said that programming required a high level understanding of math. What was said was that programming was essentially math. I have been programming for years and yet only recently have I had even a basic understand of discrete mathematics. And if you don''t think that programming is based on math then let me give you a little hint:

B = {0,1}

quote: Original post by YoshiN
Everyone who is saying that programming is not math should pick up a book on discrete math. First off, no one said that programming required a high level understanding of math. What was said was that programming was essentially math. I have been programming for years and yet only recently have I had even a basic understand of discrete mathematics. And if you don''t think that programming is based on math then let me give you a little hint:

B = {0,1}

Depends on the type of programming you do. You can write database apps forever and rarely use any math.

You still aren''t getting it. Whether you use any math when you program is not the issue, it''s that programming breaks down to math (that''s essentially what machine language is) and that was what the original poster meant (or so I believe). It''s all just math on the set {0,1}.

quote: Original post by Machaira

Original post by YoshiN
Everyone who is saying that programming is not math should pick up a book on discrete math. First off, no one said that programming required a high level understanding of math. What was said was that programming was essentially math. I have been programming for years and yet only recently have I had even a basic understand of discrete mathematics. And if you don''t think that programming is based on math then let me give you a little hint:

B = {0,1}

Depends on the type of programming you do. You can write database apps forever and rarely use any math.

Math != Programming, however math skills are necessary for the programmer. Especially skills in the area of mathematics often referred to as 'discrete math.' Which is the the mathematics of logic, game theory, algorithms and a few other things which I forget right now. If you cannot write an optimized algorithm you will never (yes, never) become a truly skilled programmer. Granted, you may have a compiler perform all these wonderful optimizations on your code so that regardless of how cruddy you manage to write it the compiler spits out something that is elegant and efficient that does not replace the ability of the programmer to write an elegant algorithm manually. While your basic addition and multiplication (maybe some exponentiation) math will serve as all you ever need of the basics if you want to write large scale applications or applications that do processor intensive work you will most definately want to understand discrete mathematics. As an example of universities requiring CS majors to understand math: at the school I attend most people call CS majors glorified math majors, they are required to take at a minimum 7 math courses (including discrete math) and a class on algorithms. Math is very important to any advanced level of computer science. Ok... think I'm done.

-- Exitus Acta Probat --

Edit: Dammit, I need to learn how to spell.

[edited by - jperalta on February 19, 2003 5:10:03 PM]

It all started... i would say... in 1995.

I am 18 years old.... I actually knew I wanted to be a programmer at 6... I am now studying comptuter science, so i believe i will soon do what I wanted to be... im going both technical schools and university programs... But like I said, the degeneration began in 1995.

Why ? windows 95 and Internet Explorer...

I''m not blaming microsoft, but those two pieces of software are responsible for the fact that almost everyone can consider themselves something somewhere near ''power users'' because they can do stuff that was much more hard before and/or think that because they are good at computer games, they can become programmers. My classes are crowded with people like this. Result: From about 200 students in the first semester... we are now 60 in second semester. And we''re doing C now, as opposed to VB last session. Everyone screw up, yet, in practices labs, they''re are much more Quake, UT or wathever than programs actually compiling... Computer Science is now cool; and everyonethink they can tackle it... this result in either

a) many poor professionnals
b) almost everyone failing

And now programmers are being labeled as lazy because some video gamer tought he could program, or tought he was l33t with his mIRC script.

Anyway... just my 2 cents... sorry for my english; not quite up to par.

quote:
I think you''re wrong. It''s almost 0% math, and even less logic. Most programmers are dealing with problems that are neither mathmatical or logical in nature-- they are pure words puzzels without rhyme or reason.

As an example:
Microsoft says: You need an HMAGICAL_OBJECT to write to the screen. You then ask "Whats an HMAGICAL_OBJECT?" and spend the next 2 hours trying to find out. That doesn''t sound much like a math or logic problem to me.

0% math... reread your proggin books... and maybe you just don''t understand the problem well enough? Your example is moot as that has nothing to do with a programming "problem" or "project" etc. You''ve simply given a mistake in following through with one of the formers.

I found cars quite easy after I started programming. I just broke it down.

What is wrong with car?
-> Engine makes strange knocking sound...

Check knowlegable friend/internet for string "engine knocks"
-> Engine knocks caused by improper amount of fuel going into carborator

Fule comes from "fuel line"
-> Check fuel line for blockage

Blockage found?
[yes] -> Find way to remove blockage
[no] -> Find other causes of "engine knocks"

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we need pictures

Its interesting to see how this thread has developed, but i believe that many of you have missed the point of my original post. it wasn''t that programmers are using tools, and not doing machine code, it isn''t that they cant fix a car.

my original post was about the drive of a programmer to stretch their knowledge and to learn new things. instead of pressing their knowledge... and sit in front of a complier and figure out why they have 90387638 errors.... they sit around, in their stagnant knowledge, trying to feed themselves excuses on why they aren''t developing as a smarter individual, while still trying to uphold their status as 1337 programmers, that are, of course, better than anyone else.

ive learned more things about logic and programming (not just c++ specific) in the last 2 weeks while making my game than i would have ever done in my sh*t "AP" c++ class. one poster was right, there is a lot more game playing and quake actually going on in my class room than compilers running. its totally true.

i believe that students trying to be CS majors.... or even just take a high school programming course should try to attain more knowledge than to just "Get by". and thats why, in my opinion, they are lazy. it has nothing to do about using assembly, or jobs, or the industry, or getting majors, or about math, logic, problem solving.... my rant is about the programmers. not about programming.

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i code therefore i am.

Aero DX - Coming to a bored Monitor near you!

There are a lot of split opinions here, so I thought I''d share mine as well.

First of all, all of you overlook talent. To not only know something, but to be GOOD at it.

Speaking of programmers, let''s just look at John Carmack. The guy basically invented 3D programming. Tell me one car mechanic that, after learning programming, will be able to do something like that?
Then look at it from the other angle. Can Carmack invent a new braking system for a car? Hardly.

The word here? Passion. Talent. Knack. Call it whatever you like, but the geniouses of every field that mankind has explored have that extra something that everyone else seem to lack.

So what makes a programmer? His dedication. Skill is not determined by theoretical knowledge. It is determined by the way of thinking, the talent, the passion.

So, say that EVERYONE in this forum (having the aquedate intelligence) can learn the basics of physics. Hell, you could even learn the deep thoughts behind it and master all theory. But you will never be another Einstein. How do I know this? Because we all hang out at a game-developing forum and our fire burns the brightest for game development.
So Einstein had Talent for physics, we have a Talent for something entirely different and that is the ONLY thing that seperates us. That is also the ONLY thing that seperates a great programmer (like Carmack) from a mediocre IT programmer.

So, do you have talent or are you mediocre? That''s what it all comes down to.

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Final Frontier Trader