quote: Original post by DerekSaw
1337 h4x0r?? Most of them just know how to h4x (that''s quite a skill! )

I heard h@x0r5 WERE good programmers, up to a certain level. Besides, without them, we couldn''t make better programs. Look at HL and CS. How many hax have been made for that. Now, I can''t even tell if anyone cheats.

All I''m saying is, some DO have good programming skills and they also help make our games safer and more secure.

I try to help the people I know, to understand what that piece of code sitting in front of them actually means, but I have to admit, whenever I see those posts in a forum I have to grin...

"I wnat to make a mod! Ive got cool idea your this guy and blow stuff up! I need a programmer a designer a texturer a..."

You get the idea...

P.S.: Distinguish between |-|4(|<3125 and script kiddies :D

[edited by - l3mon on February 18, 2003 6:08:38 AM]

quote: Original post by A Guy from CRO
There''s no need to overglorify programming, in its essence it is mathematics PERIOD

Let''s not oversimplify it either. If math was all it took to be a good programmer, then there would be a hell of a lot more programmers. I know people who are excellent in math, but don''t know a mouse from a floppy and never would.

It also takes a certain mindset and way of thinking(ie a combination of logic and imagination) to be a good programmer.


First make it work,
then make it fast.
--Brian Kernighan

"I’m happy to share what I can, because I’m in it for the love of programming. The Ferraris are just gravy, honest!" --John Carmack: Forward to Graphics Programming Black Book

My god. #1: YES, programmers ARE getting lazy. So is everybody else. Big deal. WinXP eats 80 megs of RAM. QNX fits on a floppy. Open Source sucks, and so does SOAP. HTML was a bad decision for the WWW, and SMTP is ineffecient. Welcome to the wonderful world of software!!!! Every decision is a bad one, yet everything keeps on keeping on.


#2: I don''t think it takes any math skill, or a very high IQ to be a programmer. Fixing a car is way more complicated than programming. There are usually no manuals (not like MSDN anyway), and you can''t just ''debug'' something mechanical.

Most programmers (and yes, I mean you!) never invent anything new. They rehash old ideas that have (for the most part) been well documented for the masses. Every now and then somebody crosses a disipline, or invents something new, but it is as common in programming as it is in every other industry.

Your alcholic cousin, who''s missing the right part of his brain, could learn to do most of your job if only he had the patience. Sure he might not be as enthusiastic as you, and maybe he doesn''t go home and try to write video games at night, but he can learn OpenGL and spew XML just like the rest of us. Maybe he might not do as good a job, but most non-programmers don''t really care.

Thank you all for hearing my rant. Just relax.

Anonymous

P.S. About the math-- programming and math are not the same thing at all.

ok, how do you get that open source sucks? i don''t understand how all opensource programmers are classified as lazy. i''m sure that there are some so called open source programmers out there who have just derived most of their code off of someone else''s work, but don''t accuse all open source programmers as being lazy and say open source sucks.

quote: My god. #1: YES, programmers ARE getting lazy. So is everybody else. Big deal.

I disagree. Sure, some are. Actually most are. However saying all are is totally off.

quote: I don''t think it takes any math skill, or a very high IQ to be a programmer.

Haha! You''ve gotta be joking. You realy don''t know anything do you..

quote: Fixing a car is way more complicated than programming. There are usually no manuals (not like MSDN anyway), and you can''t just ''debug'' something mechanical.

Yea lets see the average mechanic write a simple game of tic tac toe in a week. Doubt he could do it. Take the average programmer and get him to fix a car in a week. The chances of that happening are more likely. Does that mean anything?

quote: Most programmers (and yes, I mean you!) never invent anything new. They rehash old ideas that have (for the most part) been well documented for the masses. Every now and then somebody crosses a disipline, or invents something new, but it is as common in programming as it is in every other industry.

To an extent, yes. However if programmers never code new ideas, gaming will never evolve. So of course new theories are being invented and tried all the time. Whether a programmer invents something new or not, it deosn''t matter because as long as it gets the job done the programmer has done his job.

quote: Your alcholic cousin, who''s missing the right part of his brain, could learn to do most of your job if only he had the patience. Sure he might not be as enthusiastic as you, and maybe he doesn''t go home and try to write video games at night, but he can learn OpenGL and spew XML just like the rest of us. Maybe he might not do as good a job, but most non-programmers don''t really care.

Hmm your not even worth arguing with anymore.



---
Brent Gunning | My Site

YOU''RE

Let me clarify:

> ok, how do you get that open source sucks

How do you NOT get it? If ppl could take it at face value (Open Source code) rather than "a better solution than commercial software" I might not have this opinion. However, I and many many other people, will say open source software is typically of inferior quality to the commercial grade counterpart. Linux stinks, compared to many of the commercial alternatives.

> i don''t understand how all opensource programmers are classified as lazy.

Neither do I, especially as I didn''t say that.

>>My god. #1: YES, programmers ARE getting lazy. So is everybody else. Big deal
> I disagree. Sure, some are. Actually most are. However saying all are is totally off.

You are a fine example of why dealing with programmers is often a PITA for non technical people. I was clearly generalizing yet you felt it neccesary to further define what I was saying with your uncanny ability to ignore the obvious. (Note: I am a programmer. Most of us are idiots, and not willing to admit it. I however, am an idiot, and quite willing to admit it. I stand alone)

>>I don''t think it takes any math skill, or a very high IQ to be a programmer.
>Haha! You''ve gotta be joking. You realy don''t know anything do you..

No, I''m not joking. A grade 8 education is more than enough math for most programmers. Grade 4 is about enough for most programmers. I do know what I''m talking about, as I''ve taught C++ programming at a University which will remain anonymous. As I said previously, most programmers are rehashing existing work.

>>Fixing a car is way more complicated than programming.
>Yea lets see the average mechanic write a simple game of tic tac toe in a
>week. Doubt he could do it. Take the average programmer and get him to fix
>a car in a week. The chances of that happening are more likely. Does that
>mean anything?

I could teach a mechanic to write tic-tac-toe in about 3 days. Maybe a day. Aside from "Call tow truck, have car taken to garage, pay mechanic", I doubt most programmers could fix their car in a month. It''s easier for the mechanic to learn because a) its almost the same skill set they normally use, and b) they have less technically to learn about a programming language than a programmer does about a car.

> Hmm your not even worth arguing with anymore.

Why? Because I said most non-programmers don''t really care?

Have a great commute!

quote: Original post by RapidStunna
(Laziness...)
I disagree. Sure, some are. Actually most are. However saying all are is totally off.

So you write an entirely new operating system from scratch just for your game? No? Didn't think so. Yet this sort of thing was common in the 8-bit and 16-bit period.

I remember working on a fast-loader for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, which meant going right down to assembly instruction timings to synchronise with the incoming cassette tape signal.

How many programmers actually do that sort of thing today? Not many. And that's because the whole damned point of a computer is that *it* does all the boring stuff for you.

quote: "I don't think it takes any math skill, or a very high IQ to be a programmer."
Haha! You've gotta be joking. You realy don't know anything do you..

Nope. He's right: I've even written the user guide for a major piece of 3D graphics middleware and I still don't know what a "tensor" is.

Programming isn't about math. It's a simple translation process: converting instructions formulated in one language (e.g. "English"), into another language (e.g. "C++").

What you need is the ability to learn and an understanding of mathematical *concepts*. You don't need to work out reams of integrations in your head since 99.999% of all the maths you'll ever need can be found in books.

Hell, 99% of the time, you can just copy and paste wholesale from coding 'cookbooks'. Why do you think all those "Graphics Gems" books are so popular?

quote:
Yea lets see the average mechanic write a simple game of tic tac toe in a week. Doubt he could do it. Take the average programmer and get him to fix a car in a week. The chances of that happening are more likely. Does that mean anything?

I've taught people with absolutely zero computer skills about *machine code* in about two hours. It's not exactly neurosurgery. All you need is an understanding of logical concepts like "cause and effect". Whoopee.

As for the mechanic:

Assembling a PC takes two Dell people on their production line a truly staggering eternity of, er, 2 minutes.

There isn't an automobile production line on Earth that can assemble a complete vehicle in that time.

A PC might have about 30 discrete components or so, from the CPU to the thumbscrews holding the case on.

An automobile has hundreds.

quote:
To an extent, yes. However if programmers never code new ideas, gaming will never evolve. So of course new theories are being invented and tried all the time. Whether a programmer invents something new or not, it deosn't matter because as long as it gets the job done the programmer has done his job.

You see, this is what really, truly pisses me off about programmers. Programming should NEVER be confused with Design. Design is where all the new ideas and evolutionary thinking is done. Programming is merely the *implementation* of that design.

If you're having to come up with new and novel programming techniques *while programming*, you're not doing your design right.

--
Sean Timarco Baggaley


[Edited for coarse language.]

[edited by - stimarco on February 18, 2003 5:47:54 PM]

I haven''t been programming C++ long, only for about 3 months but I have actualy been able to answer some peoples questions on subjects like arrays and pointers. When I ask them how long they have been learning C++ they tell me something like 6-8 months, one guy even said a year! What is so hard about reading just a few pages out of a book every night? It seems like the harder the material gets the less people or interested. Then there are the few, like myself, that when the stuff gets harder, the person gets more determined. Hopefully over the next few years, people will start to become more determined and less lazy.