Personally, I don''t like good and evil to be in black and white. The fact remains that many harmful people throughout history have thought they had good and right on their side. I like games that don''t have "good" and "evil" set in stone, instead they have different perspectives. For example, the warrior tribe thinks the merchant tribe are a bunch of greedy cowards, and the merchant tribe thinks the warrior tribe are a bunch of bloodthirsty savages. Neither are "good" or "evil" except in each other''s eyes, they just have different views over what the ideal is. You could then have a game where you either play a great merchant prince who has lead his mercenaries to defeat the savages once and for all, or lead a great warrior chief to raid the trade routes and drive away the greedy merchant tribe once and for all.

In the real world, people tend to have morals that, if they were to become commonplace, would make their children successful. Naturally, people who have the talent and skill to take whatever they want from others using intimidation or manipulation are likely to see their victims as wimps and suckers who by virtue of their weakness deserve to be taken advantage of. That doesn''t mean they don''t have other principles they follow though. People with no talent will tend to sympathize with the poor and unfortunate, and feel that the well off ought to give up their stuff, even if they have to force them to. That doesn''t mean they steal everything they can get their hands on. Those who are very independant will tend to believe the person who owns something has the right to deny it to anyone else, even if that person needs it. That doesn''t mean they are always selfish though. These aren''t good or evil, they are just self interest at work.

Though those at the top of the power ladder tend to have been the selfish betraying types, not everyone who is a selfish betraying person makes it to the top. Be careful, or you''ll go the way of Star Scream. Hehe. I have noticed a trend for games, like tv shows and movies, to try to force a happy ending too often though, where "good always wins." I usually don''t like it, but most of the time they don''t stick that corny bs in until near the end of the game so it doesn''t matter.

in a civilisation where some people are willing to be a little underhand for their own benefit, those people will always climb the heirarchy. the reason many leaders are a little unscrupulous is that anyone who tries to take power using entirely clean methods will get kicked out of the way by the ruthless opposition.

it might be fun to create a spoof government in a story which has a little darwinian politics mixed in. it could be contrasted with an entirely "good" leader who got to their position by attacking only external enemies (rather than self-destructive mudslinging with their rivals), and an "evil" dictator who took power purely by muscle. the obvious next step is to make the "good" leader act barbarically against it''s enemies, while the "evil" leader is ruthless in controlling it''s own people but diplomatic with wider events.

when "good" and "evil" is subjective it usually boils down to a violation (or just disagreement) with someone''s ideals. the cold war didn''t end in disaster because, even though they disagreed, noone made the first attacking move. both sides still considered each other evil.

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Effectivley, you''re just talking about the game "Black and White" and it''s pish. This is by no means a new discussion and I think that game put the kybosh on it totally.

solinear-
I would actually say the opposite is true. Where is the reward for being good and nice? In reality, the less selfish you are, the more likely it is that people will take advantage of you. Also, since you are less selfish, material goods as well as other "rewards" will not come your way as much as people who take what they want.

I think really it''s not so much about good vs. evil, but about selflessness vs. selfishness. Most games aren''t open ended enough to take into consideration the consequences of your actions. Also, some games do have more cool powers for people that gravitate towards the evil rather than the good. For example, what force powers for "good" are cool? The Jedi mind trick is the only "good" power you can get, and the rest are neutral or evil (no cool telekinetic choking or lighting from the fingertips).

When you really think about it, most games are downright evil. Mafia, Grand Theft Auto and I''ll even say it...Unreal Tournament come easily to mind (yes I think UTK2003 is evil because you are killing people for sport, not for survival). The very fact that the most popular games are centered around "evil" ideas shows that it''s more cool to be evil or bad.

I would heartily welcome any game that actually rewards being good....of giving up your treasure, of sacrificing your character, or of just simply doing the right thing instead of blowing people away.

Here''s a thought...

If you are evil, you will enjoy pleasures for the season, the moment, but at the end, all your evilness will come back to haun.

On the other hand, Good, you will not enjoy much at the present, but it will all pay off in the end

(I didn''t read the whole tread, btw, so, i don''t know if this had been said)

To be honest, folks, I think this is very realistic.

A long time ago, when i was a little, just about everyone was pretty nasty to me, but I did not retaliate.

No, I see the same ppl that where nasty to me and they are now high school dropouts, dope addicts, and generally, their lives is sucking. I even think one of them got Leukemia (sp?)
Now, I see myself, i'm feeling good, happy, and enjoying life.
Things go well etc etc etc.

EVIL COMES BACK TO HAUNT YOU LATER

[edited by - Insanepoet on January 10, 2003 12:37:47 AM]

just a quick quiz

how many people that believe good/evil is subjective/relative/evolved/self-interested have been in a situation where you have been able to tell someone what to believe?

The way I figure it, if you have, you must have told that person to be moral because (according to your beliefs) that would have been in your self-interest/etc. That makes you a hypocrite, because what you believe is different from what you tell others to believe. On the other hand, if you didn''t, you are a hypocrite anyway, because you don''t act according to what you believe.

...as Jesus said "a divided house cannot stand"

You can hum and hah all you like but the fundamental fact about good and evil is that "the wages of sin is death". There aint no candy cane for the bad guy in Hell.

deClavier, that makes very little sense. First off, how do you come to the conclusion that what you tell others to believe is nessisarily different from what you believe yourself? On second thought, I don''t wanna know. Whenever someone brings religion into the mix, sense starts to fly out the window faster than a hundred dollar bill on a windy day.

deClavier-
Haven't you in essence just told us what to believe?

I agree with entivore though, when religion gets into the mix, things get ugly. That being said, I DO believe that good/bad is not a moral subjective, that there is some measurement by which we do things. However, I do not know EXACTLY what that measurement standard is, and frankly, anyone who tells me that they know what it is is someone I will have a hard time trusting. At best, we must recognize that no one has the absolute answer (even if it does exist) but we must do the best we can.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear" - Thomas Jefferson

"One's own religion is after all a matter between oneself and one's Maker and no one else's" - Mahatma Ghandi

[edited by - dauntless on January 11, 2003 3:08:03 AM]

a short idea on moral justice in games

say you do actions which are intrinsically evil, the game now generates a little bad luck

example: you are sneaking around sliently, praying you don''t get spotted. a window blows open and a guard comes to shut it, walking right past you

example: you swim across a river and when you get to the other side a couple of your (prominent) items have washed up downstream

example: you get attacked by a bull

example: your car stalls

example: you turn off a light, the switch sparks and the light never comes on again

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