I notice something about good and evil in games that doesn''t seem to mirror real life. Good gives AWESOME rewards and evil give you absolute crap. I''m sorry, but the last I checked in the real world, if you are a shithead, step on other people and claw your way to the top, the only thing that you''re usually missing is friends, but you don''t care about that because you have money and power. Why is it that in games, if you''re evil, you get none of the good loot and nobody likes you? You should have a choice... people like you or you get the ''phat lewt''. Pick A or B, but you''re not getting both. Where is the reason to become evil? Where is the allure? Where is the temptation? Knowledge of good and evil were too much for Adam and Eve... they could have just lived in wonderful harmony, never knowing any better, but they had to know, so they ate. I mean, it''s kinda silly that you have one, easy path, usually full of all the phat lewt, where most everyone likes you and another path, that is a pain in the butt and you''re kinda screwed most of the time. It just seems like you should be able to lie, cheat and steal your way to the top (as long as you don''t get caught) easier than you earn your way to the top through good deeds.

This is one of the many aspects of reality that sucks. That is why we have video games to turn to.

Evil and Good... Black and White...
Thinking in Grayscale is more realistic.

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MSN: nmaster42@hotmail.com, AIM: LockePick42, ICQ: 74128155
"It''s all part of the conspiracy of conspirators conspiring to conspire their own conspiracies..."

Actually, take a look at Everquest. I play/played a ranger who worshipped Tunare, now our guild decided to do a raid on Tunare, I could have played a part in this, but while I am certainly not a hardcore roleplayer, I just saw something hugely wrong in killing my own in-game godess, she drops amongst her items an extremely nice sword... but I just couldn''t bring myself to do it!! Also because the Ranger epic requires good faction with Tunare and I have the first epic sword, but not the second, but this sword vastly outdamages the epic sword I was after. If however I went after this sword, I''d end up Kill on sight in my home city, another thing I didn''t want to happen.. though some people think it''s cool... I just don''t see myself as a renegade ranger... so that''s a start on what I think you''re after, but I certainly agree it could be done better.

I''d like a game where you are good and everyone hates you for it. Like Pacino in Serpico or Gene Hackman in the French Conection.

I have been playing Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries.. You can take contracts like defense, escourting politicians to peace settlements, etc, and they give you nobility points. There are also missions like assasination, assult and industrial sabotage which give you infamy points.

They both effect your reputation in a different way, and the bad missions usually pay more. I take all the good ones, although there is one I am stuck on where I am alone and have to fight like 10 mechs and 20 tanks in the city.

The defense side, which I am on, gives you nobility points, probably a lot, but it's extremely hard and doesn't pay as much as the other contract you can take, which is the same mission but you're on the other side.

The point is, in MW4Mercenaries, you ahve the choise to be infamous or noble, you can take sides in the war that's going on, and build a reputation... Bad pays more, as it does in the real world.

In Terminus, which also has a mercenary element, you have the same ability to build your repution. You can make lots of money by hijacking ships, taking their goods, then blowing them up and selling the scrap metal. (Which can sometimes make a LOT of money.) Or you can make friends with other ships, rush to the aide of bots who are on the recieving end of a hijacking, and fight the pirates. You can deploy repair droids to help those in need, which are expensive to buy.

If you are evil, you don't make any friends, and you get a bounty on your head. But you get lots of money as a pirate.

Choose your destiny...

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By the way, I do believe good and evil exist. To deny that is to blind yourself to reality. Believe me, there are people who want nothing more than to fufill there own selfish desires, at the expense of anyone. I've known people like that, and there are people in history like that. Hitler wanted power, and he saw the people of his country as expendable. He had nothing against the jews personally, but if killing them off and turning people against them would make him more powerful, it didn't matter. THAT is evil.

[edited by - Frapazoid on January 4, 2003 1:21:46 AM]

[edited by - Frapazoid on January 4, 2003 1:22:43 AM]

quote:

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I''m sorry, but the last I checked in the real world, if you are a shithead, step on other people and claw your way to the top, the only thing that you''re usually missing is friends, but you don''t care about that because you have money and power.

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Just what sort of "real world" are you liveing in???

If the world truely, honestly was like that..then WTF do you want to include such elements in a game? If the risk is so low as to only involve your "max number of friends"...then why not just go out and live that life instead, and really gain that ''phat lewt'' you percieve such people easily obtaining?

I agree. Most RPGs say that you could play on both sides. This is a big thing. Ever since TIE Fighter, we could choose the side. Probably the biggest thing preveting anyone from fully embracing this lifestyle, however, is the lack of an ability to purposly knockout someone instead of killing them, or to fight them to a standstill.
What I mean is something like:
So your a big bad ass. You walk into a bar. You find a guy who asks your name. You tell him to buy you a drinks and f* off. So he gets angry, even though you are playing your bad ass role and attacks you. So what happens next? First, everyone in the bar attacks you, and then you kill the guy instead of knocking him out. Now you are a murderer. Plus you probbly lost a quest. You always have to be a nice guy to get quests, even when you are talking to a bad guy.

I want to be a bad guy but I don''t want to have to be nice to everyone I meet just so they don''t fight me to the death.

Hey... like what about all the other consequences of being evil... like health problems... statistics show, you know... and nightmares... and mental illness...

its not as cut and dry as your black and white logic would make you believe

That is true, a game must establish early on if it is black and white (for example, a James Bond conflict) or if it is Chineese grey.