quote: Original post by Arild Fines
While I''m not Sabreman, I can give you some links: [...]

Thanks Arild, those are all good resources. The only one I''d add is Dive Into Python, which is good for folks who are converting from another language.

Python is a very, very good language to learn first. It can also do a sh*t load of advanced stuff. Or if you feel you can manage it, skip the crap and learn C or C++.

I started with BASIC. Don''t repeat my mistake.

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BASIC programmers don''t die, they just GOSUB and don''t return.

quote: Original post by NotAnAnonymousPoster
I think I follow that. But then if there was no gap between problem and solution domain, programmers would not be necessary.

Ah, well that''s a whole other philosophical can of worms which I shan''t bother broaching right here and now.

quote:
Didn''t know classes and methods came with documentation. Never worked on a large scale project.

Sure you have. How do you know how to use the C++ Standard Library?

quote:
Sounds like you don''t regard it as very significant. But C# is a new language, and they''ve opted for a static type system. With the amount of money that has been poured into .NET, the issue can''t be resolved. It can''t be a concrete conclusion that static typing is shite.

It''s fairly well understood that dynamically-typed systems such as Python allow one to be more productive than explicit statically-typed systems. What bothers me is that many of the same people who will acknowledge that seem unable to join the dots. The s/w industry makes the same mistake over and over again.

quote:
So the con''s outweigh the pro''s?

That''s my belief, but it''s rather hard to prove. Obviously, you don''t have to agree with me. The best way is to find out for yourself. Go ahead, learn Python, see what you think.

quote:
I don''t blame him for the quote on the smalltalk website where I recently acquired my signature: "C++ is an octopus made by nailing legs to a dog."

That quote is not attributable to Stroustrup.

quote:
But the people who first realised that type systems were going to allow for more efficient code were not idiots, they just had a different perspective on things.

Woah, stop right there! I''m not talking about a distinction between type-system and no type-system. I''m talking about a distinction between different forms of type-system. There''s no question that a type-system is a must have... Python certainly has one.

quote: Original post by SabreMan
The only one I''d add is Dive Into Python

He said he was a beginner - I didn''t want to scare him


I''ve looked at the source, and there are pieces that are good and pieces that are not ... My experience and some of my friends'' experience is that Linux is quite unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse. -- Ken Thompson

I know a little HTML and &#106avascript just so I can make a site or two but that's all.

cmillion

[edited by - cmillion on January 5, 2003 3:36:42 AM]

quote: Original post by hewhay
I think that you should learn about the basic of how a program work. A little bit of binary, how it is used on the system, memory how it is managed and then learn c or c++ on a c fashion. It would be a harder path but you will have a more powerfull knowledge than those who only know a programming language.

It seems to me that most of the advocates of other languages than C or C++ (SabreMan being perhaps the most vocal) never advocated learning only one language, nor recommended against learning C and/or C++, but only against learning these as a first language. I think (or at least sincerely hope) that we can all agree that a good programmer ought to know more than just one language!

(Although its practical use is probably vastly overrated by many, I personally think that a good programmer should have a working knowledge of assembly language. When it comes to optimisation, understanding how the computer works can only help. Please note that I'm not saying that optimisation requires assembly, but learning assembly will teach you how the processor works on a low level.)


The Corner of Misery
Artwork and writing

[edited by - Miserable on January 5, 2003 3:52:34 AM]

Where the hell can i find VB C++ 6.0 standard, Please if someone knows where please tell me.

quote: Original post by Hoze
Where the hell can i find VB C++ 6.0 standard, Please if someone knows where please tell me.

1) What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
2) Do you mean VB 6.0, or VC++ 6.0? There is no "VB C++".
3) Have you tried your local computer store?

[edited by - Miserable on January 5, 2003 4:10:34 AM]

i cant believe this hasnt turned into a flame war!!!
yeah!!! way to go everyone!

quote: Original post by SabreMan
Sure you have. How do you know how to use the C++ Standard Library?

Good point.

quote: Original post by SabreMan
It''s fairly well understood that dynamically-typed systems such as Python allow one to be more productive than explicit statically-typed systems. What bothers me is that many of the same people who will acknowledge that seem unable to join the dots. The s/w industry makes the same mistake over and over again.

So you think that the creator of C# is making a mistake? Or just trying to appeal to the market of C++ programmers?

quote: Original post by Sabreman
Go ahead, learn Python, see what you think.

Going to be learning Smalltalk as part of my course. Can''t wait to get started.

quote: Original post by SabreMan
That quote is not attributable to Stroustrup.

As far as I read it, he was trying to ween the C community into object oriented programming. I interpreted the quote as the adding of features to C to give it the potential to be object oriented. The quote makes me laugh even if it turns out I don''t understand it.

quote: Original post by SabreMan
I''m not talking about a distinction between type-system and no type-system. I''m talking about a distinction between different forms of type-system.

Right, okay. I''ve obviously misunderstood something here. Typed languages were introduced in the 50''s for efficiency. I read that as static typed languages, but is it just typed languages in general?