quote: Original post by SabreMan
I suspect supply and demand to be a major culprit. There are a lot of game programming wannabes.

Game Programming wannabes?

Do you mean businesses that create their first game to attract a different audience, or what?

- Rob Loach
OverTech Technologies
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"I don''t know half of you half as well as I should like; And I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
- Bilbo Baggins

what measures difficulty (and therefore scarcity, and hopefully more high paying) in programming jobs is the restrictions/limitations put on the programmer, and the program. most game programming jobs have a very high restriction for their programs to be first and foremost fast, then comes flexability, portability, quality, etc.. business apps dont have the same limitations, but their are still difficult to deal with none the less. mixed programming languages, multiple or low level platforms, multi lingual programs, size restraints, usability and probably many more (ive never coded for a business job before so im probably only hitting the tip of the iceburg). i think they balance pretty evenly, but a high end proffessional business program will always be more complicated then any game.

You should consider the life cycle of a game. Companies pour an enormous amount of resources into a game to make it successful. If it fails, that is money lost that may never be recouped from the project, and to make it up, another project must pick up the slack. In addition, once it's out there, had it's turn, many are quickly cast aside for the next latest title. If it's turn didn't last long, then it probably made very little money. Companies like Microsoft have constant revenues coming in because as long as the world is buying computers with Windows on it, then they are making a profit. Imagine if you could sell every computer with a copy of 1 particular title, think how much money would be made off of royalties. While the gaming industry is a growing market, every game that comes out is not a "must have" title that everybody is going to buy, meaning, simply not everyone wants/likes the title, and it's not essential to the operation of your computer.

I don't think that it's a question of which type of software is harder to develop. Developing software for missile defense systems and radar systems can be vastly more complicated than games, and vice versa you can make a game as complicated as you want. I think it comes down to the fact that games are entertainment software, competition is fierce, and the return is small for the majority. On the other hand, if you have a product that adds commercial value to your business, helps you get things done, and can save companies money, then you're going to sell more, which increases revenues, which can increase the amount a company pays their developers.

Games have very little return on investment dollar wise for the purchaser. IMO the only people that benefit from the sale of games is the people selling it (speaking of profit only). With commercial software, companies and individuals can use the software to generate revenue for themselves and their own businesses, which in turn increases the demand for that software, upgrades, new versions, which will also increase profitability for the commercial software vendor.

IMO

Higher productivity = higher profitability

It would be interesting to see how many games are developed each year compared with non-gaming software titles, and what the average success or failure rate is.

Thoughts anyone?

[edited by - Emblem on December 11, 2002 10:38:59 AM]

quote: Original post by Machaira

Original post by Wikkyd
So yes modern 3d game programming is another level above regular business apps.

Have to agree. Any entry level programmer can crank out the average business app. Granted there might be an exceptionally difficult business app every once in a while but those are exceptions rather than the norm.


Are you guys on crack? Just wanted to say that. Tell me, what is a ''typical'' business app? I''d like to know what you''re all talking about, because of the 11 PC''s and 5 Mac''s I have sitting in front of me right now, I have yet to see a single ''typical'' business app that could be put together by a new CS graduate, let alone an entire graduating class of CS students.

3D programming is something that is learned. How is it that you feel it''s any more complicated than any other specialized field? I''m not even going to bother giving examples of really complicated computing, because there''s just so many of them. Go pick up a copy of any good Real-Time Systems magazine, and you''ll start to see all kinds of bizarre and wonderful software projects that are in the real world, and were far past easy before somebody even thought about it.

Cheers,
Will

PS- Lots of running software out in the world cannot crash, EVER. Think about it the next time you''ve got a memory leak.

Well, I don''t know about other companies but OverTech Technologies has been doing some database and database manipulation.

- Rob Loach
OverTech Technologies
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"I don''t know half of you half as well as I should like; And I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
- Bilbo Baggins

quote: Original post by Machaira
Have to agree. Any entry level programmer can crank out the average business app. Granted there might be an exceptionally difficult business app every once in a while but those are exceptions rather than the norm. It takes a serious programmer of above average ability to do even an average 3D game. For a AAA title, even more so. I can do almost any business app in my sleep, but I''m still struggling with 3D.

I used to think this way too, until I had to write some _real_ business apps. Sure, 3D math is hard, but so are complex business processes, multi-resource transactions, fine-grained security architectures, and coding multi-tier clusterable applications. If you can do this stuff in your sleep then I know some people who would love to give you a job.

Speaking of government jobs, I''m not entirely sure about this though...

Working directly for the US gov''t probably won''t pay that much, but you do get go health care and retirement plans

On the other hand(which is what I think some of you may be thinking about) are the private contractors contracted by the government. This is especially true from looking into the defense industry. You get companies like Lockheed-Martin or Raytheon or whoever. These software engineering jobs tend to pay higher than straight gov''t jobs. I''m not sure how the salaries compare to other industries, but they seem to be at least average.

quote: Original post by Wikkyd

Ive programmed both Business and Science based applications ( and 3d game programming for 1 year now.)

Most Computer Science majors lack advanced mathematics knowledge. Coding Science based apps require knowledge that can only be gained via a physics, mathematics, or other engineering degree. Nearly all universities only require CS majors to take very basic mathematics courses.

Computer Science majors from bad schools, or ''Computer Science'' majors from schools who are really just teaching programming, maybe. At the 3-4 schools I''ve been involved with in various capacities, you couldn''t get out without a couple of classes in calculus, linear algebra, graph theory, basic combinatorics, and probably ODEs as well. Admittedly we''re not talking about abstract algebra/high end number theory level stuff, but come on, that''s way more than advanced enough for 3d Apps.

quote:
Game programming easier than business apps? A 2d sprite game yes. A 3d game? No way. Business apps are FAR easier to code.

Pffft. Name a _specific_ business app that''s easier to write than a 3d game.

quote:
Why do I bring up science apps? Because 3d game programming requires advanced mathematics on the level of some science applications.

I work for a company that does stuff that''s fairly complex, science/mathematics wise. 3D games aren''t even close to the same ballpark.

quote:
Coding a 3d game engine with collision detection, collision response, skinned mesh animation, animation blending, particle effects, other bells and whistles requires an extensive mathematics background.

If you consider one course in linear algebra and a couple of physics classes an extensive mathematics background, sure. I wouldn''t.

quote:
So yes modern 3d game programming is another level above regular business apps.

Could you please support that assertion? You''ve shown the knowledge/difficulty level of 3d programming, but not of business apps.

I cant say that I really know anything about programming business apps, cause i never have. But the way I see it is that when your programming a videogame, you're taking on the role of a god. You're making a whole new earth/solar system/universe. And that encapsulates everything else. A videogame could very well be implementing one of those *real* business apps right into their game engine. a game engine brings digital life. It takes on all the aspects of every day life and some extras sometimes too. Physics, Mathematics, Sociology, Psychology, Artificial Intelligence, software engineering, sound engineering, History, Biology, any subject you can think off is present in some game or the other. Especially RPGs where you literally *do* have to build a whole new world from scratch.

And this all has to be done with speed on the priority list. And they have to support as many computers as possible. With business apps, either they are custom made for a specific target (requested by the client), or they are usually do not require so much processing power.

If they do require a lot of processing power I would assume they are some type of custom app for NASA (or a game developing company ). My point is that I cant really see how a business application can take on more then a game application. a videogame IS a business application, plus a heck load of extras!

Videogame _always_ have to target the consumer level, but business apps do not.

[Edit]: added last sentence

::: Al:::
[Triple Buffer V2.0] - Resource leak imminent. Memory status: Fragile

[edited by - alfmga on December 11, 2002 2:01:03 PM]

Quantity:
# people interested in games < # people interested in other programs.
You have Office class in your school, but you don''t have Doom class.

Benefits:
games < others.
Tell them that games are more important than Office. Those business people will complain.

Price:
games < others (consider both are equally good).
Games always start <$100. Others? $5000. $10000.

My compiler generates one error message: "does not compile."