In order to give you some reference and make it possible for you to understand what sort of setting the rules presented here would be placed in, I will begin with a BRIEF summary of a few of my RPG''s key concepts. My RPG-in-progress, Pentaverse, is set on five fantasy worlds, each connected to two others by Gates. The game''s is set several thousand years after the last of a series of great wars ended in utter ruin. Technology, although extremely advanced before the wars, has fallen, leaving the five worlds in various states of minor technological advancement. My basic story was posted in the Game Writing forum, so I won''t spam by reposting them here. The game''s combat system is sort of a hybrid between that of an action-RPG and that of a tactical-RPG. Combat can be large-scale, involving anywhere from two to two hundred combatants depending on the situation at hand. However, combat is always action-oriented, with characters (both friendly and hostile) spending part of their constantly replenishing supply Action Points for each action they take in combat. Fully charged AP gauges can be completely emptied in order to perform special Ultimate Techniques, which do slightly more damage than if the character had used all of their AP on normal attacks/spells/abilities. -------------------------------------------- Okay, this is post is a proposal for an alternate magic system which I would like to get some input on before trying to incorporate it into the rest of my design. In many RPGs, characters cast spells using Magic/Spell Points, which are depleted with each casting and restored by rest or limited-use magical items. MP/SP address the problem of unlimited spellcasting quite well. However, under almost any magic system (even D&D''s spell slot system), the player will cast his most powerful spells until he runs out of energy, resorting to lesser abilities only when nearly out of magic. This will result in the character casting a long chain of Lightning Bolts/Flares/Dark Forces over and over again without variation. Thus, in your average computer/console RPG, spellcasting becomes a far less strategic activity than fighting. Simply click/select your best spell, cast it, and then repeat. Meanwhile, the people on the front lines thrust, parry, dodge, attempt to flank their opponents, etc., etc. My all-in-one solution is to split up all magic into five abstract world-based categories. These would not be concrete categories, such as Fire Magic, Necromancy, Healing Magic, etc., but would have a feel unique to that school of magic. If anyone here has played Magic: The Gathering, they will know what I''m talking about. Under this system, a character has five stamina gauges, one for each of the five schools of magic. Whenever a spell is cast, not only are the MP needed for that spell depleted, but the stamina level for the school of the spell cast goes down and all of the other energy gauges go UP, each by an amount equal to one-fourth the amount by which the first gauge went down. Example: Before: Solan has 37 MP. Gauge A: 10 Gauge B: 10 Gauge C: 10 Gauge D: 10 Gauge E: 10 [He casts a 6 MP spell from School A] After first spell: Solan has 31 MP Gauge A: 1 Gauge B: 12.25 Gauge C: 12.25 Gauge D: 12.25 Gauge E: 12.25 [He now casts another 6 MP spell, this time from School B] After second spell: Solan has 25 MP Gauge A: 3.25 Gauge B: 3.25 Gauge C: 14.5 Gauge D: 14.5 Gauge E: 14.5 -------------------- By the way, for purposes of this system, spells are split up into levels 1-10. Spells of a given level cost ((2 X Spell Level) + or - 1) MP, except for Level 10 spells, which cost 19 or more MP, to a limit of 50. The energy expended from a stamina gauge is equal to (Spell Level)^2. The spells Solan casts in the example are both 3rd level spells, so 9 energy are drained from the school gauge and 2.25 added to each other gauge. Does this system make any sense? Is it too complicated for the average RPGer? Please post opinions!! P.S. This system is made to replace my MP/SP (Dual Magic Expenditure) system, not work in conjunction with it!!

Although i think ur system is interesting, i do believe that it would be a little complicated for the average gamer, however, i think that after enough time, it would become easy for it to be understood.

NicolasX

Those aren''t bugs...they''re added features

It''s a nice system, and i think that only a good interface to the user would be required to be accepted. A color-based pentagon, maybe?.
Also, i though some days ago to use that method with weapons (specialization). So maybe you can use it also in that direction ^_-.

Yea...it is a little complicated to the average gamer. To make it easier, don''t give the user the details. Just have 5 bars, and tell them that when you cast one, the others go down.

An idea to make it a little more strategic:

You can always cast spells, even if your "stamina" in that school is extremely low, but you won''t get the full effect from the magic. On the other hand, if the gauge for that school is high, the spell will be more powerful than normal. In both these cases, the MP required to cast the spell would be the same. So you could "pump up" your skill in one category to help fight the boss, etc. Another side effect should be that the levels slowly stabilize over time, so that you can''t just run around with a full gauge in one school all the time and obliterate the most powerful monsters.

It''s complicated if you plan to give the game exclusively to morons. Provided the change in the bars, or whatever you use, is noticable, you won''t absolutely need to tell the player anything.

quote: Original post by DuranStrife
However, under almost any magic system (even D&D''s spell slot system), the player will cast his most powerful spells until he runs out of energy, resorting to lesser abilities only when nearly out of magic. This will result in the character casting a long chain of Lightning Bolts/Flares/Dark Forces over and over again without variation.

[...]

My all-in-one solution is to split up all magic into five abstract world-based categories. These would not be concrete categories, such as Fire Magic, Necromancy, Healing Magic, etc., but would have a feel unique to that school of magic. If anyone here has played Magic: The Gathering, they will know what I''m talking about.

Under this system, a character has five stamina gauges, one for each of the five schools of magic. Whenever a spell is cast, not only are the MP needed for that spell depleted, but the stamina level for the school of the spell cast goes down and all of the other energy gauges go UP, each by an amount equal to one-fourth the amount by which the first gauge went down.

You''ve not described typical stamina levels. Are they based on the character''s level? I assume they must change, as a Lv10 spell will require 100 stamina... whereas your example below only allows Lv3 spells. In that case, you have yet another thing to balance, which is gonna be awkward. I''d be tempted to keep the stamina levels at 100 for all characters (except for some minor magical modifiers) to keep things simple and easy to balance.

Secondly, the stamina changes are zero-sum. You never run out of stamina, you just redistribute it. (For this reason, ''stamina'' is probably a poor name for the stat, by the way.) Therefore the simple optimal strategy changes from "cast the best spell while MPs allow it" to "cast the best spell for each school in turn, while MPs allow it". Once you''ve cast the 5th spell all your stamina values are 10 again, so you just repeat. Have you really added strategy? Or have you just forced the players to select an order for their 5 best spells?

So, in my opinion - no, it''s not too complicated, as you could represent these things quite easily for the player. But I don''t think it adds anything. Strategy is about making choices, and your system actually removes choice by adding an extra restriction on top of the usual magic-point system.

A better solution, in my opinion, is to rethink your actual spells so that there is no indisputable "most powerful spell". Make opponents susceptible to some attacks and resistant or immune to others. Make some spells never work in different situations, terrains, times of day, or whatever. Consider spell combinations where two ''weak'' spells, if both successfully cast, can be used together to perform a far more significant combined effect. Let players pick the casting time for their spells when they cast them (by holding down a button or whatever), where a longer time gives more effectiveness but an increased chance of being interrupted by the enemy. Add choices!

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff ]

quote: It's a nice system, and i think that only a good interface to the user would be required to be accepted. A color-based pentagon, maybe?.

I like this idea!! The current logo for my game is a picture of a globe split into five "slices", each showing part of a drastically different world map.

quote: Yea...it is a little complicated to the average gamer. To make it easier, don't give the user the details. Just have 5 bars, and tell them that when you cast one, the others go down.

Actually, the ones NOT being used go up.

quote: You've not described typical stamina levels. Are they based on the character's level? I assume they must change, as a Lv10 spell will require 100 stamina... whereas your example below only allows Lv3 spells. In that case, you have yet another thing to balance, which is gonna be awkward. I'd be tempted to keep the stamina levels at 100 for all characters (except for some minor magical modifiers) to keep things simple and easy to balance.

I didn't post that part because I was trying to keep it brief, but rest assured that I have this aspect well balanced. "Stamina" (that IS a bad name for it, by the way) levels will be based on class, level, and intelligence, just like MP.

quote: Have you really added strategy? Or have you just forced the players to select an order for their 5 best spells?

You're forgetting that after a character casts a major spell, their magical energy will be dispersed between the other schools, usually meaning that it will take quite a while to buil up enough energy to cast a powerful spell again. Have you ever played Xenogears? Spellcasting under this system works sort of (only sort of) like Gear physical attacks in that game, in that you have to use lesser spells to build up energy for a greater one. Also, many of the most powerful spells are not attack spells. This may not add any strategy, exactly, but it sure adds a little variety.

quote: A better solution, in my opinion, is to rethink your actual spells so that there is no indisputable "most powerful spell". Make opponents susceptible to some attacks and resistant or immune to others. Make some spells never work in different situations, terrains, times of day, or whatever. Consider spell combinations where two 'weak' spells, if both successfully cast, can be used together to perform a far more significant combined effect. Let players pick the casting time for their spells when they cast them (by holding down a button or whatever), where a longer time gives more effectiveness but an increased chance of being interrupted by the enemy. Add choices!

The sentences in bold all describe concepts that were already key parts of my old overall game system. I WAS planning to keep them, believe it or not.

However, that last item, the one about letting players pick the casting time for their spells: Perhaps I should think about letting all spellcasters do this. Currently, only a specific class of spellcasters can do this in my game, whereas other classes must buy this ability with skill points earned at each level. Perhaps I should make it free; what do you think?

EDIT: Minor spelling error.

[edited by - DuranStrife on September 28, 2002 2:39:36 PM]

quote: Original post by DuranStrife
You''re forgetting that after a character casts a major spell, their magical energy will be dispersed between the other schools, usually meaning that it will take quite a while to build up enough energy to cast a powerful spell again.

But they can cast a powerful spell from another school, right? I assume what you''re trying to say is that the starting stamina for each school is too low for the big spells, so that a character cannot usually cast a Big spell without casting several Small ones first? (This wasn''t really clear in your original design.) This does make things more interesting, but I''m not sure if it will really add significantly more strategy. Won''t it just be a case of choosing enough Small spells to get your stamina bar up for the Big one? I still can''t see this requiring a lot of thought on the part of the player as they''re quickly gonna draw up a shortlist of spells that they can cast early in a fight to distribute magic points to where they need it most. But I suppose it''s better than nothing.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files | My stuff ]

I like your ideas so far. Perhaps instead of saying Stamina, use something like Magical Alignment or something. As far as strategy goes. It may not add much for power users who aren''t going to think much. But in a massive battle there might be more strategy. You might softren up an enemy with small spells before casting a big one to wipe them out. Or you might cast small spells that are going to make the enemy extremely suseptable to the big one, exploiting natural weaknesses or creating new ones. This would help fighting multiple enemies that are mixed crowds. Some might have a weakness to your big spell and other might have an immunity to it. So you cast small spells not only to raise your Stamina/Alignment/Whatever and at the same time weaken or lower the resistance/immunity some of the enemy might have to it. When you cast then they enemy group will be more affected. This brings strategy elements like who is more dangerous an opponent, whoi can you risk leaving after the big one and who not.

Don''t know if friendly units will be hurt by spells but if thats the case then you could even spend a few spells shielding or protecting them for a big spell you''re about to cast.

Kylotan, I honestly don't think that you completely understand certain aspects of my system, so I am going to continue the example in the first post to show what I meant by the energy from large spells being dispersed.

Where we left off:
Solan has 25 MP
Gauge A: 3.25
Gauge B: 3.25
Gauge C: 14.5
Gauge D: 14.5
Gauge E: 14.5

[He now casts yet another 6 MP spell from School D]

Solan now has 19 MP
Gauge A: 5.5
Gauge B: 5.5
Gauge C: 16.25
Gauge D: 5.5
Gauge E: 16.25

[Now he is able to cast the 4th level spell tht he has been saving up for. He casts an 8 MP spell from School C]

Solan now has 11 MP
Gauge A: 9.5
Gauge B: 9.5
Gauge C: 0.25
Gauge D: 9.5
Gauge E: 16.25

[Finally, he casts another 8 MP spell, this time from school E]

Solan now has 3 MP
Gauge A: 13.5
Gauge B: 13.5
Gauge C: 4.25
Gauge D: 13.5
Gauge E: 0.25
---------------
As you can see, after casting the two "big" 4th level spells earned by casting smaller 3rd level spells, he is once again (ignoring the remaining MP for the moment) left unable to cast anything above a 3rd level spell due to the condition of his gauges. Actually, now that I've seen this process with my own eyes, I'm convinced that this is a more strategic system than I had thought. Careful repositioning of energy might result in being able to cast as many as 3 consecutive high-level spells, forcing players to make very careful choices, both when casting spells and when balancing their spellcasters' skill in certain schools of magic.

By the way, your comment from before about more options allowing more strategy has flaws. If a player's options were unlimited, there would be far less strategy in the game than if they were given only two options, one of which they must choose each round of combat. The best way to ensure a maximum of strategy is to create an environment with a careful balance of freedom and this is what I am now attempting to do.

EDIT: Area spells do affect friendly units, but alternatively, there is a "Spell Mod" (I'll explain these someday when I have a complete design document written out and have set up a website) that allows you to burn extra MP to cast area spells that automatically avoid friendly/enemy units depending on the spell's nature. The ability that allows you to combine weaker spells to create a much larger effect is also a Spell Mod named Spellmix, and a pair of abilities allowing you to extend (Build) or lessen (Quick) are also Spell Mods. Certain spellcasting classes can use certain Mods for free (without adding extra MP) and a few special Mods even do things that reduce a spell's MP cost, replacing it with another balancing factor (such as 5 seconds of extra casting time for every MP saved). Is this the sort of thing you thought that I should include, Kylotan?

[edited by - DuranStrife on September 29, 2002 11:16:37 PM]