http://www.tech-pc.co.uk/mmorpg.php I tried to have a conversation at the Tech-PC forums about this article but not many people at had any comments and most of them were irrevelant to the main idea of the thread. My post over there was this: "You[Neco] offered the problem in your article but what do you think a solution would be? Unfortunately, the players in these so called "RPG"s have to play along for it to all work out. Obviously the game developers are out to make money so it is hard for them to "force" people to only stay in character lest they lose money from people dropping out "because the mods are mean" or something. A game could be designed in such a way that acting correctly in the world's context would give the player extra benefits but how to do this without getting all legalistic? The player should "want" to act according to the game world; not be forced to play along (though I think those l00t kiddies is another matter... ). I've noticed that most MMO"RPG"s that are currently in development (even ones that have several years left) pretty much are staying to the formula devised by the originals such as Ultima, Everquest, etc though there are a couple neato additions for some of them (but nothing that really changes the "RPG" system. And the combat is still the same "stand near each other and whack and hope the statistics favor you" system). This is mainly because publishers know that the current formula "works" and sometimes they won't even allow their developers to innovate past a certain point..." So, what are your ideas for how game developers could do better? EDIT: Change in title in order to attract more attention... [edited by - Gumpngreen on September 5, 2002 8:00:23 PM] [edited by - Gumpngreen on September 6, 2002 12:36:28 AM] [edited by - Gumpngreen on September 9, 2002 3:43:05 PM]

The biggest problem with almost every MMO game out there (I agree, they don''t deserve the RPG part of their name) is that they depend on levels.

To improve in the game, you must get levels. To get levels, you must get experience points. The way to get experience points is to kill things. Oh, some games like Fallous throw you a bone for role-playing, solving problems, and completing quests, but those rewards are trivial compared to the points you get for yet another wandering monster encounter.

Pen & paper RPGs started off this way because of D&D, which based everything on levels. Most RPGs designed after D&D abandoned the whole levels concept, and went with skills-based improvements; in fact, I can''t think of any p&p games that even use levels apart from D&D.

If we had had a DM who did nothing but roll up wandering monsters for us to fight, we would have brutalized him. The whole point of role playing was interesting plots, NPC encounters, solving quests, and yes, an occasional big dust-up. But not some pointless rat pack attack every 30 seconds.

Until games (both online and single-player, for that matter) get away from leveling, I doubt you''ll ever see any improvement in the RPG aspects.

devils advocate mode
The problem is that if you take out leveling completely you'll knock off a large potential audience. A lot of people actually like that sort of thing. So how could you integrate leveling into an overall game design that would encourage players to want to go through your carefully designed "plots, NPC encounters, solving quests", etc. There must be an operant reinforcer that can encourage the player to want to play the game further; excited to get the little goodies spread along the way. The player should have a short term goal in mind that he can look forward to. While the experience itself is good enough for me many people like to have something solid that they have earned for themselves and that they can show off to their friends and brag about. Since this is a game the operant must be a secondary reinforcer like money, praise, attention, approval, success, and the best are usual tangible things like... leveling.
/devils advocate mode

[edited by - Gumpngreen on September 5, 2002 8:01:07 PM]

Well, I question whether "A lot of people actually like that sort of thing", or if that''s all that''s available, so they play it and get used to it.

Here''s one way to integrate a different kind of play:

One reward that has been incredibly popular in most online worlds is ownership of property. What if the online world was run like a medieval feudal kingdom? In order to get a land grant, you had to do something for the king...win a critical battle, save him from assassination, load him money, marry his daughter, or blackmail him.

In a well-established online world, the king could be a player; in others, it could be a game master role or even a bot (although I suspect AI technology would have to greatly increase before that would work well).

Shorter-term rewards...well, you''ve got me there. Skill development could be one thing...if the player becomes a renowned archer or blacksmith, that would be bragging rights. So could be becoming a knight or joining a guild.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Well, I question whether "A lot of people actually like that sort of thing", or if that''s all that''s available, so they play it and get used to it.

Or as I like to say, the current games are "stuck in the MUD"...

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Shorter-term rewards...well, you''ve got me there. Skill development could be one thing...if the player becomes a renowned archer or blacksmith, that would be bragging rights. So could be becoming a knight or joining a guild.

But wouldn''t you have some sort of LEVELING for the skills? :D

Saving the trouble of registering for YAMB (yet another message board), I''l identify myself as Neco and move on.

First, it''s glad I''m not the only person on the planet who feels like this. Secondly, I''d like to address the issue of solving the problem.

I freely admit, since my bad experiences with these games, I could care less about improving them as I don''t like them anymore (which is sort of unfair I admit - but I do have my eye on Planeshift- it looks promising)

A lot of people only want to play for the levels aspect, this is quite correct. I don''t feel there is anything inherently wrong with that, as I would like to go out and bash some critters myself once in a while.

How can we attract and encourage role-playing?

Incentive. Give out experience for roleplaying, I understand this will mean a lot of manpower if it were done on a regular basis, so why not do something special and hold events where RP is encouraged? Something small, perhaps a merchant comming to town? Spread the word through local NPC''s while heavily promoting that role-play is encouraged. This would mean not simply announcing it and saying "role play is encouraged!"
once. But actively making suggestions towards the encouragement and willingness that the populous role play at these events.

How will this pan out? Well for such a small scenario you will probably have a large turnout as this is afterall a merchant event. However having staff members and perhaps "contracted out players" opening role-playing at the event, and encouraging others to roleplay as well is a good start. This could be anything from proper grammar to body language, and world settings. I mean we can''t have a staff member going around "Have ye heard the latest football score?" As I said, words do not a roleplayer make (or something like that).

Plots! Asherons call in particular boasts plots, and they are very good at delivering monthly from what I remember. However there is no real role-play encouraged outside the "Script" writings you would find on the web site and the NPC''s themselves.

Bottom line here is promotion and market exposure - get the staff out there (or volunteers from the player base) actively promoting role-play with their characters! This shouldn''t be a closet project thing, this should be going on 24/7. When it starts to catch on, the need for staff my diminish as the world itself develops it''s own culture and idea of appropriate role-play withint the confines and definitions of the game and where it takes place.


Of course there are also Role-Play only servers. We could take some of the same principles as before, reward role-play with experience or magic items or some other such luxury. Have "GM''s" (whatever those are in equal terms) come out of their coding cubicles once in a while, don the face of an unknown person and travel from town to town peddling their wares - which looks normal at first but may hold initimate secrets.

I imagine an RP server would be easier to work with, under the assumption that people who WANT to role-play would be logging on. Staff intereaction no matter what the case is something I feel should be made a high priority. The problem is there is usually not enough staff to accomplish this in today''s games.

Perhaps it''s time they did something drastic like capped server capacity at 500 - 700 people, assign dedicated staff to each server (outide of hardcore maintainence) and give them goals to accomplish. I know that might sound like an expensive solution for the player base vs. server''s online, but its one way I can really see the game designers getting a grip on the world.


Promote togetherness. Do away with instant experience gain. I''ll use Gemstone III as an exmaple. When I first joined up I didn''t have a clue how to do anything. Someone bumped into me in an area that I was far too inexperienced to be in (lvl 14 critters) and showed me around town. You know why they did this?
Most likely because their "mind" was full. Meaning the game has a capacity of experience you can collect from killing monsters - after that capactiy is reached you MUST rest on a node in able to absorb that experience effectively. (you "learn" off-node at a diminished rate depending on attribute placement).

SO what better way to kill time than helping out a n00b right? When people are forced into social situations they do what comes natural. They act social. All that MMORPG''s do now is let you hunt for hours on end with no penalty, you suffer no real combat fatigue or disadvantage. YOu are not forced to be social.

Chances are more likely groups of role-players will be formed when they meet somewhere on a node with a bunch of other people, waiting for their experience to drop. People get to talking, people get to making friends (I met some of my best friends in-game at nodes), making enemies, and this sets off wole chains of events.

Instead of all these sites that popup with cheat sheets and how-to''s could you imagine someone taking an apprentice under them to teach them everything they know? Your not going to find that in today''s "role-playing" games, because no one cares enough to stop and socialize.

I am of the firm belief you cannot have a successful role-playing game without a social structure. You can have a successful PRODUCT, but without a social structure it''s a hack and slash arcade full of "s''cuse me" & "pardon me while I pass".

There were times in Gemstone where I wouldn''t hunt for hours or days, because some event was going on and I was hanging with friends, or shopping around with friends or -gasp- just sitting around socializing and poking fun at the "young" folks with my friends.


This is the kind of experience I feel it is impossible to find, and I firmly beleive game companies seriously need to take social structure into serious consideration.

Ok... this seems to have died.

So, what would be a good system for handling "grief" players who purposely delight in causing pain for other players? It would be nice if it could be automatic and/or handled by the players themselves without having to involve the GMs.

EDIT: btw, if any of this has ever been covered in detail in another thread then I apologize. The search function is currently not working so I couldn't look before posting.

[edited by - Gumpngreen on September 9, 2002 11:59:22 AM]

quote: Original post by Gumpngreen
So, what would be a good system for handling "grief" players who purposely delight in causing pain for other players?
...
EDIT: btw, if any of this has ever been covered in detail in another thread then I apologize. The search function is currently not working so I couldn''t look before posting.

It''s been handled in a trillion other threads

With regards to the original question, the general idea would be to only reward the behaviour you want - which is roleplaying. And removing ''realistic'' aspects such as corpse looting and skill improvements through combat might annoy some players, but would deter random killing.

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If you have bookmarked some of those threads then could you post a link to them since search isn''t working?

Having skills is more like dropping class restrictions rather than leveling. Although some games keep class restrictions and leveling anyway (eg: Diablo).

One concept I have in development for a certian Online RPG (guess which one) is that instead of having experince and levels, you have skills to pull you through. This lets you mix and match your charcter class and also abandons leveling. To increase a skill, you must practice it (By killing or otherwise (there are non-killing skills like Healing, Music, etc).).

Then to keep it intresting for people who like leveling, players get coolness points (name might change). Which you score for killing things, increasing a skill/stat, winning a quest, finishing the game.

This also handles things like what happens when a player dies or does finish the game. If a player dies, the loose everything - except coolness points. Also if you finish the game (you loose control of your charcter) you gain lots of coolness points (what a motive)

The advantage here is that you won''t lose everything when you loose your charcter. And as an added bonus, coolness points could be used to gain access to new charcter races, increase luck, as a ranking method, or whatever you want!

What do ya think?

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