Oluseyi it is extremely rude for you to continue attacking other peoples ideas when your "colleague" is trying to change the theme of the post into something more productive.

If you wish to continue the discussion I would be more then happy to discuss why someone who says

quote: I am a very casual gamer; I''ve probably finished only three of the games I''ve ever played, and I hardly play most of those I currently own *

and was under the impression that

quote: Current MMORPGs require you to find a safe place to hide out and "sleep" *

is perhaps a poor candidate for any discussion on game design or the discussion of an even more complex subject MMO game design.

You are clearly not reading all the messages on this discussion so I implore you to not disrespect your "co-conspirator" Silvermyst any more.

* These quotes are from a different thread which can be found here

quote: Original post by Saluk
So yes, for two guys to try to create a mmorpg, they must be crazy idiotic fools. But I think, Mortal, that you have stressed this point enough. If they want to be insane, I don''t think you can convince them otherwise They may surprise us, and if that happens, then so be it. But there isn''t much reason to continue beating the fact that it''s either impossible or near impossible to do into their heads

I’m just trying to do them a service. When you see people about to go off and waste their time and effort on a venture you know from experience is not attainable you do the right thing and try to save them from learning the hard way. Or as in my case you try and they don’t see reason, you give your best appeal and they still don’t see reason. So you figure well ok so they have more ambition then sense but then that’s what world changing is all about. You do your part letting them know what’s ahead of them and then let them have at it.

But then you get a reply post from one of the guys and he’s pretty condescending. Not only that but he tries to imply not only that your assessment of the task is incorrect but also that he is able to succeed where you dare not tread. So you look around the forums to find out just who this guy thinks he is. You know from his rep that he’s kind of an @$$, but then everyone’s an @$$ every now and then. So you start reading through his old posts and you find references to other totally unrealistic games he thinks he can make. Like an MMO sports sim with more features then AC and EQ combined. You find that he is very commandeering and posts as an authority on all topics related to game design. You also find from his posts that he’s fresh out of college. You start wondering about what his credentials are that he is so authoritative. Here is a short list of what you find.

quote: Original post by Oluseyi
A major problem I have with current MMO offerings is the necessity of intense involvement (I am a very casual gamer; I''ve probably finished only three of the games I''ve ever played, and I hardly play most of those I currently own).
This thread 12th post from the top.

I actually advanced somewhat on a DOS-based incarnation around 1996/97, but that''s all history now
This Thread 1st post.

…

For the record, I''ve developed my share of platformers, and even a 2.5D basketball sim (all lost to the lack of backups).

…

For me, all I need to do is develop prototype systems that are playable. They may lack the visual polish of professional products or the robust networking code of a Quake... That''s okay. Others can carry on, either inspired by my successes and educated by my failures

So basically what we have here is another LandFish.

Someone who doesn’t even play games that much, implemented something that might have been a basketball sim if it was ever finished (However in recent times he’s taken to referring to it as a completed project), not only that he hasn’t kept up with development technologies so he doesn’t currently have the ability to even program a windows based game with directX/OpenGL. On top of that he expects to command the respect and admiration of others to a point where they will carry on HIS projects. I guess that’s why he’s not worried about the complexities of actually implementing this system.

So despite being insulted from a self aggrandizing moderator with no basis for his aggrandizement other then the sheer volume of his posts, I will take your advice Saluk and humor them.

PERMANENT DEATH QUERY:

1) Can you imagine yourself enjoying a game which features permanent death?
Actually I could see myself playing an mmorpg with permadeath. But I prefer simple gameplay elements. Simplicity is the father of elegence. I would just have permadeath be permadeath. The goal of the game would be to last as long as possible. To make the game fun the gameplay would have to support combat with mixed parties of higher and lower level characters. So that if a high level died he could still hang out with his friends until he caught up again.

2) Describe what you think the positive effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it solve?
Permadeath would make PvP the most exciting thing to ever happen to you in a game. It allready is breathtaking, your stomach get''s all tied in nots, it''s almost like a real fight. You could make that expirence much more exterem by having your invested time on the line

3) Describe what you think the negative effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it create?
Because when you die you have to start over the player will get very upset everytime they die. There needs to be some incentive for them to want to start from scratch once more. Having offspring and breeding and all that jazz just obfusicates the issue. Players will still be pissed when they die regardless of if they have offspring to inhabit or not.

One solution would to only have permadeat for PvP combat but not PvE. If the game permakills you you blame the game. If another player beats you fair and square your more likely to take your lumps and not complain

4) Can you think of any games that feature permanent death?

Diablo in Hardcore mode, but I never played it.

I've tried to be polite, yet honest, throughout this thread. I've responded to people's points of view by stating that I respect and appreciate their opinions, by indicating where I disagree - even though I may clearly be wrong - but some feel in necessary to belabor the point.

There are two major reasons for failure in science, according to Arthur C. Clarke (Profiles of the Future) - failure of nerve and failure of imagination. Failure of imagination is particularly common among supposed experts in a field, because they have deemed (from their extensive experience) that something is absolutely impossible/worthless/etc. The stagnation and insularity that permeates most academic-like disciplines, software development included, leads to a disconnect with new possibilities. Small wonder that many radical advancements come from relative newcomers to a field.

I'm not trying to say why "I'm right and you're wrong", though some will obviously see it as being so (largely my fault, since I have no compunctions about acting like an ass on the internet; a "you don't know me, so fuck you" attitude can backfire...). Big deal. I'm not afraid to be wrong. I'm afraid to be afraid of being wrong; I'm afraid to be so scared of failure that I refuse to take chances. And since I already look like an ass, according to some, I have nothing to lose.


[edited by - Wavinator on September 6, 2002 7:24:05 PM]

MORGANE wrote:

quote: Oluseyi it is extremely rude for you to continue attacking other peoples ideas when your "colleague" is trying to change the theme of the post into something more productive.

Not trying to undo my own attempt at trying to lead the thread into a new direction, but I read over Oluseyi''s post and couldn''t find anything even slightl resembling ''attacking other peoples ideas''.

quote: You are clearly not reading all the messages on this discussion so I implore you to not disrespect your "co-conspirator" Silvermyst any more.

I feel like I personally steered the thread down the wrong path with my overly strong attempt at defending the concept. I can''t blame anyone for not reading each and every word of a somewhat heated discussion between two individual posters.

There is no way that Oluseyi disrespected me. Respect is earned. Oluseyi has earned mine by welcoming and answering my endless stream of questions. If anything, I feel like I disrespected him by badly influencing this thread with my endless perm death/PvP talk.

Okay, enough about respect and disrespect, back to the topic at hand...

LET'S CONTINUE!

PERMANENT DEATH QUERY:

1) Can you imagine yourself enjoying a game which features permanent death?

2) Describe what you think the positive effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it solve?

3) Describe what you think the negative effects of permanent death could be. What problems could it create?

4) Can you think of any games that feature permanent death?

RESULTS SO FAR:

1)
-Yes
-Yes


2)
-Levels out level threadmill
-Increases adrenaline rush during PvP due to higher stakes

3)
-severs character attachment
-needs strong incentive for player to start over again

4)
-Underlight
-Diablo Hardcore
-Rogue (and Rogue-like games such as Angband)
-pretty much any (arcade) game without save feature
-certain FPS mods

[edited by - Silvermyst on September 5, 2002 10:23:21 AM]

I don''t see what fresh out of college has to do with anything. Many of us taught ourselves programming before we ever took our first CS course. I''m a junior in college but I''ve been game programming for 6 years.

Also Oluseyi hasn''t been particularly rude or anything, up to this point:

Oluseyi: I''ve tried to be polite, yet honest, throughout this thread. ...So fuck you.

Words fail me.

As for the actual topic of this thread, I think many of us (myself included) are forgetting about the perma part of it. Absolutely none of our ideas has been about permanent death! And I don''t like the egg idea because it''s so non-death-like it''s just an alternate respawning scheme, really.

So I prefer tempdeath - temporary death. Current MMORPGs don''t even have this, as after you die you can pretty much immediately respawn, as far as I understand it (which is not far). My ghost idea involves people who actually die, but can permanently possess someone if that other person willingly sacrifices themselves. That allows for trading for bodies and so on, or people who raise bodies purposely to sell them to high-level dead guys. An MMORPG that encourages more alternate modes of play or more professions is good.

I also like MagicScript''s idea. In his world, people become ghosts too, but they can be sent back into their body and regain life (with some exp loss) if another player performs the ritual to do it. But the player also enchants the items he wears when he dies, although if resurrected and those items are scattered around, he regains his abilities slowly since his essense is spread around.

Although that idea allows for people to become powerful, die, get resurrected by a friend, and repeat (either with the same character or "character farms") to generate high-level equipment. I think his idea can only be balanced if you don''t allow the player to regain his lost abilities until he reclaims his items - as he gets each item back, he can absorb his essense from them, making the item a regular non-magic item. Or, he can choose not to (or have another character wear it) and just wear the magic armor. (Game balance check: Only one person''s spirit can be in an item, and only from one death - you can''t level repeatedly, dying repeatedly, to pump up a weapon to ridiculous power.) You can also give the player absolute knowledge of each of his items'' exact locations in the world (if his spirit resides in the items), so he can hunt down whoever has them (if they were stolen) and reclaim them, to get his abilities back. Of course he can level regularly as well, but absorbing his spirit from his items very quickly helps him level.

This system would actually be a lot like books and movies. In Lord of the Rings, the demon puts his spirit in his ring (without dying, but let''s ignore that point for now). After he dies, he tries to seek out the ring to get his strength back (and its abilities). Also, he always knows where the ring is, he can sense it.

~CGameProgrammer( );

Good good. Lets ignore the senseless attacks and get this discussion going.

I agree with the points you've made about my idea CGameProgrammer; I hadn't even thought about that. I think the player shouldn't get absolute knowledge. Perhaps he can 'sense' if his items are nearby when he is alive, but while he is still a ghost (before someone resurrets him) he would have absolute knowledge. So, while is a spirit he is most in tune with the 'aura' his items give off, and they are marked specifically. But when he is alive, this 'aura' is barely detectable, so the player only gets hints like "That direction."

I actually have one disagreement, but no solution. I think that a player should be able to regain his abilities even without the items inorder to prevent overly punishing players who get pked and robbed. How or at what rate, and how this would affect the newly created items, I am unsure about. I think the items should only lose their magical enchantments if the oringial owner is actually wearing them so that the attacker (and theif) doesn't lose his very nice enchanted items just because X amount of time has passed.

[edited by - MagicScript on September 6, 2002 12:11:39 PM]

First off, I need to publicly apologize to MorganE (with whom I have had private conversations) and Ironside. Irrespective of what I may have felt, I have a responsibility both personally and as a function of my role here on GameDev.Net, and I failed in it with my inappropriate utterances and actions. Whether I''m "right" or "wrong" (and from whose perspective) is immaterial. I''m sorry.

Secondly, I particularly wish to thank MorganE for his willingness to discuss (again, in private) our misunderstandings and to broaden my mind to certain issues. It''s much appreciated.

Finally, I would like to assure all that if I don''t have anything constructive or useful to say, I''ll shut up!


In light of what has been discussed previously, Silvermyst and I have been reexamining our design structure. Our focus is still fundamentally PvP, but Silvermyst is suggesting a way in which Perma-Death still affects the game but does not dominate it. Where death is more a part of gameplay than just the final outcome of battle. We''ll keep you posted, if you so desire.

FIX: Ghosts can control/influence NPC/animals. Ex: In lord of the rings, the baddie that always new where the ring was manipulated several people and spirits etc etc to get the ring back. So when you die, you sick a pack-o-monsters on the bastard that gotcha! Or not , Im a big stupid head!

Bleh, you ruined it by making up and withdrawing. I want to see what we can come up with in terms of well thought out ideas. I like the idea of a ghost having effect on animals or monsters of the wilderness. Perhaps certain more 'evil' monsters would try to lure the ghost and kill it. Or 'weaker' monsters/animals would 'sense' the ghost and be afraid. Allowing a higher level character who died the ability to 'haunt' a forest because his spirit will last for a considerable time.

[edited by - MagicScript on September 6, 2002 6:00:26 PM]