quote: Original post by KalvinB
"It is a very high level programming language. Don''t comment on software you have not used please."

It''s such a high level that you lose any hope of actually learning even the basic concepts of programming. Nothing you learn using "Klick N Play" will help you later on. It''s not worth paying money for. QB is a high level language but not to the point where what you learn using it is worthless when you try to learn a new language.

Not true. I notice you ignored the second part of that quote...

When you make a game with Klik and Play, you''re writing an expert system. You lay out game objects with a graphical editor, and then define rules (subject-predicate-object) in an ''event editor.'' You have to define a rule for each situation you want the game to detect. You can combine the rules (&&) and/or negate them (!); and each rule has a number of actions associated with it. Rules can be put into groups, which can then be enabled/disabled, allowing some fairly powerful constructs. Loops and functions are easy to establish.

I have to mention that my knowledge isn''t actually based on Klik and Play itself, but it''s successor, "The Games Factory." However, I did use Klik and Play some years ago, and from what I can remember it worked in the same way.

I will agree that it''s not the best tool for teaching programming concepts. However, it is better than qbasic as a tool for teaching game creation concepts (and I have extensive experience with qbasic). The underlying implementation of things like collision detection or animation are hidden, allowing the user to concentrate on more important things - such as game design.

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For all of you people:
A programmer is not a person knowing the syntax of n languages but he knows the principals and techniques of programming.Any game made with C++ can be made with VB or basic.The thing that changes more is speed.For a young child the speed is not something big(unless his is making an FPS).

Everyone has kept saying you cant make games in java-script

You can make games in java-script

using java-script and css im planning to make a tetris like game
and ive already finished Tic-Tac-Toe

quote: Original post by KalvinB
"any language that only builds DOS applications..."

You learn programming by building DOS applications anyway. Whether he uses QuickBASIC or C++ his programs are going to be DOS to begin with except C++ is going to force him to use typewriter text (which is useless if he wants to make games) unless he adds in Win32 which is an unncessary burden at the beginning.

If you start with MSVC (or any other relatively recent compiler that builds win32 apps) then you''re building native windows applications, you can''t build DOS applications with any of the recent (>4.0) versions of MSVC++. Win32 console applications are still windows apps, even if they do display to a console. And who said text games are useless?

quote: Original post by munkie
I wouldn''t recommend C++ to any 10 year old.

And why not, I started learning it when I was 9...



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quote: Original post by KalvinB
You''ve never actually used QuickBASIC have you? It''s incredibly more powerful than batch files and WSL yet simpler to use. No, it doesn''t come with the OS, but as I posted earlier, you can download it for free. I''ve seen DooM clones written in QB. It''s an incredibly powerful language yet simple to learn.

No, I''ve never used QuickBASIC. I''m not arguing against QuickBASIC.

quote: Original post by KalvinB
That''s all well and good except you can''t do much with them. You''re coding for a typewriter with those languages. Top to bottom only which cramps any sort of creativity you would like to express. QB can do all of that and more in an easier to learn fashion and doesn''t force you into typewriter mode when displaying graphics and text.

Java-script is worthless for learning how to program games which is this kid''s goal. As are batch files which makes it incredibly odd that you would even consider suggesting them.

I disagree. As others have pointed out, if the purpose is to learn programming concepts, any number of languages will suffice - including java-script. Further, many languages began as typewriter languages... try googling on "tty" sometime.

quote: Original post by KalvinB
Are you trying to be helpful or just trying to argue?

I''m trying to be helpful but also defending my suggestion. I haven''t taken the argumentative tone that you have. I haven''t put down any particular language.

My angle is this: children are fickle. eg: "Daddy, I want to learn how to play guitar. Buy me a guitar" - so Daddy buys a guitar but the guitar goes unplayed because the child has moved along. I''ve seen this happen with guitars quite frequently. So my angle is that rather than having Daddy spend a bunch of time or money on someting the child might abandon in a week - point the child to something that is already present - java-script, windows script, dos etc. If the child really takes to it and wants to learn more, there are plenty of further options available. If the child''s interest wanes - nothing lost on Daddy''s part.

At any rate, regardless of the language, programming a game is going to take some time. Sure there''s "paint by numbers" but that only goes so far.

"And who said text games are useless?"

No one. But there are very few games you can make with typewriter text (left to right, top to bottom only). You''d fare a lot better in arguing against my points if you took the time to actually read what they are.

QB allows you easily place text anywhere on the screen allowing for a greater variety of games that can be made using text. It also only takes 1 line of code to set up a screen mode for a double buffer and one line to flip the page. Try that in C++. That''s an advanced concept in C++ requiring a large amount of work. In QB it''s a simple concept requiring one keyword, PCOPY, which is explained in the help included with QB. In order to learn the concept of double buffering in C++ it would take a large amount of work and research which is a waste when just starting.

C++ in a console is crap for someone wanting to make games which this child is wanting to do if you even bothered to read the OP. QB will allow him to do far more advanced things than C++ when he''s just starting. I went from years of QB to DirectX/C++ without blinking. It''s a very easy switch after you''ve mastered QB.

"nothing lost on Daddy''s part."

What part of "QB can be downloaded here" costs daddy anything? What part of "C++ can be downloaded here" costs daddy anything?

Apparently in your attemtp to be argumentative you''ve failed to actually read the part of the thread where I pointed out you can get a number of C++ compilers and QB (as well as a number of other languages) for *FREE* at my site in the DevZone.

Batch files has to be the dumbest idea I''ve seen yet. Well it''s slightly better than HTML. There''s nothing they can do that QB can''t do easier and it doesn''t waste his time having to move to a new language to move on. QB will keep you learning new concepts for years if he wanted to stick with it that long before moving to C++.

You''re just being argumentative and yet have nothing intelligent to offer to the discussion. Java-script has already been suggested.

The only reason I can think for thinking Java-script is a "good idea" is that it''s like C++ which completely meaningless when you''re just starting.

Here''s a shocker people: syntax doesn''t matter. Concepts matter. QB is the best beginner language for teaching concepts while at the same time not limiting what can be done. Who cares if the syntax isn''t like C++?

The only people that care are those who can''t see past their own nose.

Sure you can start with C++ but it''s rediculously limited when just starting until you toss in Win32. QB can do leaps and bounds more than C++ with a lot less effot for at least the first year of learning allowing a new coder to learn far more concepts easier.

"using java-script and css im planning to make a tetris like game
and ive already finished Tic-Tac-Toe"

I''d like to see that.

Ben


IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting | Dot Com | GameShot ]

As an example of something QB can do with text that C++ in a console could never do:

Nazi Blowout



That demos passing variables through functions, input, sound, and AI as well as how to do a splash screen.

You couldn''t come close to doing something like that with C++ until you toss in Win32.

Which is why any language that does typewriter text is not a language for beginners. It''s too limiting. You don''t need that kind of overhead until you''re able to make games like Nazi Blowout and want to improve the look which is all languages like C++ offer; better graphics and sound.

QB can do pretty good graphics and sound. It''s just really really slow at it.

Ben


IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting | Dot Com | GameShot ]

Check out this out, very nice text mode stuff.

Yes, you do have to use a few Win32 console commands to use more than type writter text (change colors, move things around), but it''s not much more difficult than the QB commands.

In terms of teaching basic coding concepts, QB is pretty good, but it does kind of promote the use of some not so good coding styles (goto). Of course, you can still avoid goto in QB.

I''m sick of arguing with Kalvin, just download QB and tell your son to learn that... I''m not sure how many quick basic books are in print now (there have to be a few), but I''m sure there are some decent tutorials on the net. You may want to go with something like Darkbasic, most of the young kids would find that more impressive graphically than QB, and I think it''s pretty easy to use.

i personally started out on C64Basic at the ripe old age of 7
moving on later to qbasic, java, c, and finally c++

my experiance in C64basic, and quickbasic wern''t all that helpfull when i made the jumt to java, c, and c++

i would reccommend starting out in console c, then console c++, then graphical c++(with directx or opengl).



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