One way I like to come up with new ideas is by adding arbitrary constraints to an existing well known design and seeing what the consequences would be. For example, what would an FPS look like if you weren't allowed to have weapons? If you go down that line of thinking it raises a lot of obvious questions, like:
* In what setting would being helpless make sense? (Horror?)
* What are the player's tools for survival if they don't have guns? (Stealth, objects in the environment?)
If you keep going down that line of thinking you might end up with something like Amnesia, which is, you know, awesome. It's not the only way to get there of course, but it's a nice hammer to have in your toolbox.
MMO's are really interesting to do this with, because a lot of the conventions that exist in the genre came about more as a reaction to managing griefers and social issues, not because they added a lot of fun to the game (ie, "safe zones", opt-in PVP, etc). Ralph Koster's postmortem on UO gives a lot of insight into how a lot of the genre conventions came into being.
At the core of the issue is how do you provide players with more agency (ie, the ability to have meaningful choices that affect the world), without the entire thing falling into chaos?
Well, here are some ideas. I'm going to start lopping off aspects of MMO design I don't like and see where it goes. I don't know this will result in anything that works (probably not), but hey, being an armchair game designer is free.
The most common way of addressing griefing is just to make certain behaviors impossible. If there's an issue with level 60's going around crushing level 1's, we put the level ones in a magical safe zone where the 60's can't use their weapons. We're not going to do that, because it ruins the coherency of the game world, and a coherent game world is what I want. I'm defining "incoherent" as "has rules imposed on the world that don't mesh with the fictional reality". Or something like that. If we need to police something, it can't be from meta-rules like "when you walk into towns your weapons just stop working".
How do we discourage griefing? Maybe that's the wrong question. Maybe a better question is: how do we turn griefing into part of the fun? How do we let some players play the villain, without it getting out of control?
First off, we get rid of levels. There shouldn't be a level sixty and a level one; we can't let player's be exponentially more powerful than each other. It's too divisive, and it creates too much of a hierarchy. MMO's have levels because it's a very easy way to create a compulsion loop, but they aren't the only way.
We still need some other mechanism to give the game our addictive secret sauce; but that's ok. You don't see any levels in Sim City, do you? The compulsion loop there is in the building of things, and the acquisition of stuff you need to build more things. The key is that you need to give players some way of advancing that doesn't turn them into invincible battle tanks. I can think of a few ways -- let them build things (buildings, forts, items, towns), let them build connections (ie, use friend counts as a scoring system -- hey it worked for facebook when they started), let them acquire stuff/resources (people always want more stuff).
Another interesting aspect of allowing players to build things, and making it a core part of the gameplay, is that you also solve the content problem. That problem being that you have to continuously be creating content (quests, items, etc) or players will grow bored and leave. Content sucks. It's expensive to make, and players can only experience it once before it becomes stale. Modern MMO's are about the consumption of content, but it strikes me that it would be more economical to make them about the creation of content. We've seen that building things can be a very powerful compulsion loop, and it automatically creates quests when you throw in limited resources and resources that interact in interesting ways.
We still need to address griefing though. I think that griefing often occurs because players feel disengaged from the world. I doubt most players are sociopaths -- rather, the combination of anonymity and boredom turns people into jerks.
So what if you take away anonymity? What if you had to play with your real name from your credit card? I'm not saying that's necessarily a good idea, but, I suspect people would be a lot more civil towards each other.
Another possible solution is to reconsider what the "massive" in MMO means. What if the world size consisted of 150 people instead of 3000? And what if the world itself was a very dangerous place -- you need the help of others to survive long term, because you're weak. Since we've taken out leveling, your connections with others, and the things you build, become very important if you don't want to die regularly. If you were a griefer you would become very quickly known and outcast, and your gameplay experience would consist of lurking around in the woods trying not to get mauled by grizzly bears. Sounds about right to me.
I think, all the same, you want griefers. It should be viewed as a valid play style, but it should also be a very difficult play style. If you're having people building worlds, you want people who occasionally come through and wreck 'em, otherwise things get stagnant. Creative destruction. Griefers provide a real service in that context. You just need to keep them down enough that the creation part can happen before the destruction part does.
So that's how I would fix the MMO. I'd remove leveling, premade content, let griefers run free, and remove the massive part. So basically, not really a MMO anymore. HA! Not sure if it'd work, but I'd like to play it.
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February 01, 2011 02:54 AM
Basically..... MineCraft with fighting?
Still I think it is a very interesting idea. It's definitely been considered before.. but, well, MMOs aren't things that many indies tackle (successfully), and companies need to make money, not throw a few months on some idea that may or may not work. The level system is tested and sure to work.
I also do think that it's a good idea to have some kind of way to gain combat power, if you're not going for some kind of multiplayer sims game, cause if everyone's going to be around the same strength, why even have fighting in the first place? For them to fight the few same monsters over and over again (cause they can't get more powerful)? So, if some people are going to be more powerful than others, and you can't really have it completely skill based, because once again then there is little room for growth, you're going to have your problem of the levels again, even if you don't explicitly use "levels" in your game.
So maybe an alternative to making everyone the same strength is in order. Something like http://m.kotaku.com/5733426/a-new-and-maybe-better-way-to-stop-people-from-being-jerks-online?
Well, I don't have any experience designing complete MMOs, but as you said, the advice of an armchair game designer is free.
Still I think it is a very interesting idea. It's definitely been considered before.. but, well, MMOs aren't things that many indies tackle (successfully), and companies need to make money, not throw a few months on some idea that may or may not work. The level system is tested and sure to work.
I also do think that it's a good idea to have some kind of way to gain combat power, if you're not going for some kind of multiplayer sims game, cause if everyone's going to be around the same strength, why even have fighting in the first place? For them to fight the few same monsters over and over again (cause they can't get more powerful)? So, if some people are going to be more powerful than others, and you can't really have it completely skill based, because once again then there is little room for growth, you're going to have your problem of the levels again, even if you don't explicitly use "levels" in your game.
So maybe an alternative to making everyone the same strength is in order. Something like http://m.kotaku.com/5733426/a-new-and-maybe-better-way-to-stop-people-from-being-jerks-online?
Well, I don't have any experience designing complete MMOs, but as you said, the advice of an armchair game designer is free.
February 01, 2011 06:09 AM
@jonathanasdf
Haha, with regards to it sounding like minecraft with fighting, I actually had a similar thought after I wrote it out. I was thinking "awesome, it sounds like I just reinvented minecraft a year too late". I'm not sure how much it would look like minecraft the more I think about it though. I mean construction systems can be quite varied, and I think minecraft's is pretty unique to itself. I don't think you'd want to copy the uniform block based approach; as it's just too much of a minecraft signature. What shocks me is that nobody (that I know of) is trying to use marching cubes/isosurfaces to do world construction (the algorithm demo scene coders always use to make the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaballs"]meta-balls[/url] effect). It's pretty efficient, used a lot outside of the game industry (like for medical scanning and such) and really cool looking.
I think with regards to what you're saying about combat power, my counter would be that it still doesn't affect player skill, which will inevitably grow over time. And if the primary enemies are other players, the combat stays interesting even if you don't fundamentally change things every week. I mean, people still play chess even though the pieces never change. I'm just not sold on this idea that you have to constantly provide new content for the game to stay compelling, and I just don't think the game needs to artificially augment player skill by giving handicaps (levels) to more experienced players. I'm not even suggesting a skill based system here, I'm litterally saying that the only way to get more powerful is to get better equipment/better weapons, and even then the effect should be minor.
Haha, with regards to it sounding like minecraft with fighting, I actually had a similar thought after I wrote it out. I was thinking "awesome, it sounds like I just reinvented minecraft a year too late". I'm not sure how much it would look like minecraft the more I think about it though. I mean construction systems can be quite varied, and I think minecraft's is pretty unique to itself. I don't think you'd want to copy the uniform block based approach; as it's just too much of a minecraft signature. What shocks me is that nobody (that I know of) is trying to use marching cubes/isosurfaces to do world construction (the algorithm demo scene coders always use to make the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaballs"]meta-balls[/url] effect). It's pretty efficient, used a lot outside of the game industry (like for medical scanning and such) and really cool looking.
I think with regards to what you're saying about combat power, my counter would be that it still doesn't affect player skill, which will inevitably grow over time. And if the primary enemies are other players, the combat stays interesting even if you don't fundamentally change things every week. I mean, people still play chess even though the pieces never change. I'm just not sold on this idea that you have to constantly provide new content for the game to stay compelling, and I just don't think the game needs to artificially augment player skill by giving handicaps (levels) to more experienced players. I'm not even suggesting a skill based system here, I'm litterally saying that the only way to get more powerful is to get better equipment/better weapons, and even then the effect should be minor.
February 04, 2011 06:33 AM
Your thoughts are not far away from mine.
I've been pondering about this kind of stuff for a couple of years now, and i believe that both Minecraft, Garry's Mod, and all recent popular sandbox games have a lot of wasted potential. Our technology has surely evolved a lot in the last few years, and i believe that an ever-evolving sandbox game is required at this time.
Imagine a 3D role playing game where you can build and craft, where the typical "i dont have a goal so this is boring" sandbox game cancer gets cured by providing content and goals based on technologies you start with, learn, discover, and teach to NPCs and other players if your game supports multiplayer (in this case, technologies are like content packets that include new items to craft, new buildings to build, new actions, and new goals you can select for your custom goal list), where NPCs have their own goals themselves and therefore help evolve the world by creating their own towns and community and occasionally generating conflict.
Now imagine the interation scheme. You could use both 1st and 3rd person cameras and therefore have Fable-style movement and interation on 3rd person, and Half-Life 2-style movement and interaction on 1st person. You could cut down trees with an axe, build houses and fortresses, make a sandwich, all the same way that we play melee combat-based Mods like Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II. You could talk to NPCs just like HL2, by pressing an interaction key while looking at them, you could earn Renown for your actions and therefore become important in your world, among other things.
As you may concur, there is a lot of potential here that could become something beautiful, if properly implemented. Also, if what i said doesn't strike you as impressive, it tends to be because i dont usually express myself very well, so sorry for the trouble.
I've been pondering about this kind of stuff for a couple of years now, and i believe that both Minecraft, Garry's Mod, and all recent popular sandbox games have a lot of wasted potential. Our technology has surely evolved a lot in the last few years, and i believe that an ever-evolving sandbox game is required at this time.
Imagine a 3D role playing game where you can build and craft, where the typical "i dont have a goal so this is boring" sandbox game cancer gets cured by providing content and goals based on technologies you start with, learn, discover, and teach to NPCs and other players if your game supports multiplayer (in this case, technologies are like content packets that include new items to craft, new buildings to build, new actions, and new goals you can select for your custom goal list), where NPCs have their own goals themselves and therefore help evolve the world by creating their own towns and community and occasionally generating conflict.
Now imagine the interation scheme. You could use both 1st and 3rd person cameras and therefore have Fable-style movement and interation on 3rd person, and Half-Life 2-style movement and interaction on 1st person. You could cut down trees with an axe, build houses and fortresses, make a sandwich, all the same way that we play melee combat-based Mods like Pirates, Vikings, and Knights II. You could talk to NPCs just like HL2, by pressing an interaction key while looking at them, you could earn Renown for your actions and therefore become important in your world, among other things.
As you may concur, there is a lot of potential here that could become something beautiful, if properly implemented. Also, if what i said doesn't strike you as impressive, it tends to be because i dont usually express myself very well, so sorry for the trouble.
February 12, 2011 07:33 AM
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My project [url="http://www.wograld.org"]Wograld[/url] is going to be skill based rather than level based, a system more like Ultima Online,