I always liked Yoshimitsu.

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Original post by SolidHavoc
I was thoroughly ticked off at the amazing amount of combos he could pull of just using the punch button. Not since Soul Caliber had I seen techniques like this. And I started thinking: Are there any fighting games that don''t involve some sort of cheese-factor?

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SoulCalibur was not a button-masher! The moves are well categorised and easy to defend against. Almost any single attack has can blocked or evaded, and simple attacks like punching in any game can often be beaten by longer range attacks such as kicks.

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Why not use some sort of weight distribution system on the character models to counteract using the same punch/kick/combo over and over?

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Because that''s dumb. I did karate for less than a year and I could throw 1001 punches or indeed kicks without being near to falling over. However, by the 3rd punch in a row whoever I was sparring would know the exact block to use.

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Well, if you want to design a good fighting game, you have to know about fighting in real life. When a good fighter throws several punches, he does shift his weight forward, but instead of falling over, he steps forward, and covers ground while adding momentum to his punches. Throwing several techniques really really fast is quite effective, and there is really nothing cheap about it. If somebody rushes you and throws several punches or kicks, they always leave themselves at least partially open for a counter-attack. If you want your fighting game to discourage button-mashing, make your game center around blocks and counter-attacks.

- Bong, James Bong

And, in my defense, I have seen people pick up MANY fighting games for the first time ever and easily defeat someone who has been playing for years, and who can beat almost anyone thrown at him, whether it be in the arcade or on console.

Yeah I remember a time like that too.When a friend of mine named Kevin picked Maxi and I had Mitsuigi (sorry if I get the name wrong).And I was playing for years and this was his first time playing he pulled off a flurry of moves that I never thought would come from a newbie.At first I was pretty mad about it but when I thought about it it was really my own overconfidence that did me in.I didn''t block as well because I knew he was a newbie.I underestimated him and paid the price for it.

The point is that instead of blaming the game you just have to reevaluate your strategy.In this case I soon figured out that while Maxi did a almost infinite combo of moves if you can deflect just one that kind of takes the wind out of the opponents sails.Since that day I still learn new ways of battling.I continue to change my gameplay as I find more and more worthwhile opponents.I think that''s what makes a great fighting game.When 10 different people can pick the same character and come up with 10 differents ways of using the moves on that character.That''s great game play.I personally don''t like StreetFighter vs Capcom 2.I personally think that it''s unfair to have 138 combo moves but that''s just me.Corrin can play it practically blindfolded.Hasn''t lost a game that I''ve watched yet.

What I say to you.Go back to the lab.Polish up on your skill.Turn the hardness up to the max once you can get to the next to the last guy you can usually handle just about anyone that comes up.


The road to hell is paved in good intentions

Alright reading the whole thing I think I''m starting to see what he''s trying to say.What he wants to try to get rid of is the beginners luck factor.Where the newbie comes up somehow presses the exact sequence of keys to pull off the one infinite combo in the game.Te more seasoned veteran would have the advantage since he would know more moves and the newbie of course would be royally thrashed as we know all newbies should.

But sometimes that beginner''s luck factor is what makes you want to get into a game.I remember playing StreetFighter for the first time.I remember how thrilled I was when I pulled off a uppercut fireball combo for the first time.Even though I did it by accident.I spent the better part of that day trying to recreate what I did before.

If everytime you get on a game you get womped,and womped bad.Worst yet,everytime you get on the game you get womped and you couldn''t even put a foot inprint on the other guys face how long do you think you will continue to play that game.You don''t want to make the good moves so hard that only the very seasoned player who happened to read Gamepro can figure it out.

The key to very successful fighting games is that they made the moves so easy to do that after a little practice it felt like the joystick was just an extension of your body.When I get on Soul Calibre I don''t really even think about what I''m going to do.Now I just do it it''s like second nature to me now.

What seperates the novice from the expert??Who can consistently land the hits.Who knows when to use that combo and when to lay low and play it safe.Yeah that might mean that a newbie wins every once in a bluemoon but will he be able to pull that move off over and over and land it almost everytime??

The road to hell is paved in good intentions

Sorry about so many post but I just thought of a great idea.Something to solve the dilemma.Alright what if you made a fighting game that worked on a level system.This would only work if it was a console game but it''s an idea.You know like winning 10 matches might get you to level 2, 25 matches level 3.That way the veteran gets rewarded for his hardwork.The higher level player will be able to inflict more damage than his lower level brotheren.Or maybe even make it a choice on what attribute you want to change.Speed or power.That way a newbie could choose the exact same player as you but because he hasn''t won any matches yet the veteran would have the advantage.The novice will have to use more cunning if he expects to win against a seasoned player.Does that fit more on what you were trying to accomplish??

The road to hell is paved in good intentions

You people make it sound like you can just "get lucky" and come up with a dominating set of moves. I suppose it COULD happen, but it never does.

In VF if the person is randomly jamming on punch and kick they are going to get one of:
PPP
PPPK
PK

Maybe a few different things depending on the character, but for the most part these are going to be the moves you will see.

Eddie Gordo in Tekken 3 was the single most scrub-friendly character either, but even with him there are only 2 or 3 variations to what he is going to do. If you know the variations they are easy to stop. Tekken is unique in that you *really* have to know your opponents techniques. (In most games knowing them is very helpful, but in Tekken you HAVE to to get anywhere) For example Jun has an infinite string. If you know the string you can easily counter it, but if you don''t know it it can kill you 10 rounds in a row without you getting a hit in.

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If it ain''t broke don''t fix it. The original poster had a problem and suggested a solution. When people explain that the problem isn''t really a problem, the solution is still floated on it''s own...what does it get you?

What is the problem with a beginner being able to do strings from the start? In Virtua Fighter the longest string you will get by mashing is PPPK, which can be easily ducked. One of the things that makes a game like Tekken appealing is that you can read a FAQ, practice a 10-string and use it in the game without really being good at the game at all. 99% of the time against good people using the 10-string wil just get you killed, but at least it feels cool.

Making techniques harder to do, with more complex controls or strange rules is not a solution. That will make it frustrating for beginners and annoying for experts, and these games are already frustrating enough as it is.

If you are are newbie and you play an expert in some fighting games you are in for a world of pain as it is. In SF2 you will just get fireball/uppercut-ed to death. In Tekken 2 once you hit the ground you will be totally unable to get back up. When I started learning Tekken 2 my games always went like this:

Get hit, fall over.
Get killed while trying to figure out how to get up.

I probably lost a solid 20 games in a row just like that. Now you want to make it even more frustrating?

Canned strings in fighting games don''t get you very far, what are known as "custom strings" are what experts use and you can''t mash those out.

In my next post I will talk briefly about what advantages a beginner does have.

What advantage does a beginner have? Let me use Tekken as an example here.

Beginners are random. Beginners can usually be easily beaten by a dominating offense or solid defense. However many techniques that work on intermediate or advanced players will not work an beginners. This is because many mind-games depend on your opponent knowing certain things, and using those to your advantage.

A good example is King in Tekken. If you press 1+2 you get an elbow swipe the leaves King back-turned. (Back to opponent) From here if you press 1 you do a second hit. The intermediate player knows that you cannot get an attack in between the first and second hit - if you flinch you get nailed. They also know that the second hit hits mid (I think), so they must block standing.

So, after you press 1+2, the opponent will most likely stand there blocking. As King if you expect this you can do a number of things, including his unblockable. His unblockable is slow and hits high (can be ducked) but if you have *trained* your opponent to expect 1 to follow 1+2, you can sometimes land it for big damage.

Training your opponent to expect something, then surprising them with something different is common technique used by expert players. The problem is it requires your opponent to have a basic understanding of the moves and to recognize patterns. The above example would not work on most newbies. No matter how many times you tried (1+2, 1) to train them to block high they will most likely keep flailing and knock you out of your unblockable attempt.

What this means is that when facing a beginner you can''t get too fancy. Clever tricks generally don''t do as well as brute force. In the above example, if you just kept doing (1+2,1) (AKA the Top Spinner) over and over you would probably win easily. It comes out fast, knocks over and does good damage. It has a lag afterwards but to punish the lag you have block the move then use a move fast enough to hit it back. Beginners won''t consitently do that.

Similarly you can use the jumping Hell Sweeps with the Mishima family, the one where they jump up and spin-kick in the air, then hit the ground and contiue spin-kicking a few times. This move will get you killed if you use it against experts. It is easy to block and punish. But you can beat 95% of newbies with just this one move.

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Whenever I am trying to teach people a new game I do the same thing. I just keep doing the same move over and over again, and I''ll even tell them "I''m just going to keep doing this until you block it." For example I will do Armor King''s jumping low kick over and over. (A move that all beginners have trouble blocking) Finally, when they do block it a few times, the next time instead of doing a the low drop kick I run up, do a normal jump kick (must be blocked high) for a launch, and combo them for 40% damage. No matter what the game I use this same sort of pattern. Teach them how to deal with a move, then show them how that can be used against them. Another example is using Znagief in SF2, I''ll just low sweep them over and over and when they finally block instead of low sweep I just Spinning Pile Driver them - same concept.

Hey anon I agree with you.Fighting Games are about skill.Beginners may pull off a win every now and then but they can''t do it consecutively.But the guy is just looking for feedback about a game idea.I''m just trying to help the man out.I do agree that making moves too difficult is a sure way of estranging all but the best game players from playing your game but I''m hoping that my suggestion might succeed in giving him pretty much what he was asking for without making it too hard for the novice player.

The road to hell is paved in good intentions

Actually, there''s an argument that fighting games are *too* realistic, that is, art imitating life:

Ever watch boxing, and see a decent fighter, in excellent shape and great technique get trounced by someone with an unorthodox style. Then you get frustrated saying: "damn, that other guy was garbage, he didn''t deserve to win."

Actually it''s the opposite. The decent fighter didn''t really have any skills. If you''re *really* good, you''ll adapt. Unorthodox, button-masher -- doesn''t matter. Like Bruce said, "Be like water, when you pour it in a glass, it becomes the shape of the glass."

I''m a fighting game coinsurer. And I’ve been frustrated by a button-masher. But I don’t say: “game suck”. If your opponent took all day to attack of course you’ll be prepared. But the button-masher rushes you, pressing XABXYABAXYA. What now? If he’s a novice, he’s probably using the same attacks and there is ALWAYS a counter. But I don’t have time to teach you all this. Water baby.

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