hey there guys. i see there are some people who are long time in the business. i don''t know whether this subject has been discussed before but i need some information. our crew is new to the game developing business. i know everyone thinks his idea is GREAT and will SHAKE the market pulling zillions of dollars in his pocket. this sounds kinda stupid anyway. i know the reality is quite different. however since we already decided we''ll be doing game (actually there are 3 scenarios, but we''ll first check how the things are going with on of them before starting our work on the other two). i recently saw that Operation Flashpoint''s budget was $600000. kinda lot of money for ex-communist country crew. since i live in such country too i think figures this high will be unimaginable for our crew. so it seems we are going to need a sponsor. and here we are. could anyone please explain how the things actually do work? what should we do to get a sponsor, what should we do to get a publisher, what publisher shall we look after, how to contact them, how to represent our game / idea and stuff like that. of course we are interested in some simple math too - how many copies a game should sell to bring some good profit to it''s creators? how many copies do mediocre, typical, good and great games sell? i heard the only game who turned 5 million copies was Myst and hit games (game of the year ones) usually hit 100-200k copies. give me some more ifnormation please. i know this market is overcrowded and game budgets are getting close to movie ones, but we still have some nice things to offer and still have no budget. ;-) i will be thankful if you share some advices newbies like us have to use in order not to be drown. thanks!

Ok, as far as budgets go, they vary widely. Really what you have to look at is how many people you have on your team and what the reasonable (realistic) salary rates are for entry-level positions. For example, programmers might be paid $35,000 salary (year salary) broken up over 12 months (whatever that comes out to). Of course, this can vary with the cost of living in your area. If it costs more or less you can and ought to adjust the salary rates accordingly. Next get a realistic estimate on how long it will take for you to develop your game. These two factors will then give you your personnel costs.

Next figure in any contracted labor. For example, I contract out artwork, so I don''t keep artists on staff, I just pay them by the job. This works fairly well for me. The artists get their pay when the job is done (job could be a single image or a compilation) and I get the artwork quickly.

Then you need equipment. Hopefully your team members will already have their own computers and software. If they don''t, and you cannot get them to acquire their own, then you need to allocate money for that as well.

Now you''ve purchased the resources, human and otherwise, that you need to finish your game. More or less that will be your working budget. If done correctly, you should be able to keep it between $100,000 and $200,000 (with a small, well-provisioned team).

Any additional money you may want to request from a publisher could cover operating costs for the remainder of the year, or perhaps a larger investment (like a 2 year investment). If you plan to advertise, manufacture or market your game yourself, then that''s a considerable additional cost. And that''s when you get into the movie budget range (advertising can be insanely expensive).

Hope this helps some.

Charles Galyon

normally to get any sponsorship you will HAVE to have a few people with experience of successfull big name titles. Unless you have a big pile of retail boxes from shipped games your staff have worked on then you can forget it. If this isnt the case then you need to set your sights lower, do a budget game and sell it over the net. Once you can do this and shift a few thousand copies you will be approached by publishers who deal with retail, And after you have a successfull and profitable retail product you can have a go at getting an advance to do the big game you want to.
Nobody likes hearing this, but unfortunately people wont lend a million dollars to people who have a good idea unless they also have a good track record.
Start small

http://www.positech.co.uk

CGalyon >> well. our approach is a bit different. actually there are 3 of us who started this idea - a sketch artist, a coder and me - graphic designer / artist. well there are 2 guys who also might joint the crew - both of them do physics / ai coding. however one of them is currently working for US based game company and i don't know if i'll have the ability to attract his attention. anyway we perfectly realize that we won't get any money (for ourselves) until the game is on the market. i see it's kinda trendy lately getting people over the internet and trying to do games this way. i personally am part of 2 such projects but honestly i don't think these games will ever get to the market. anyway i think getting people who already have steady income and would like to work on the game in their spare time is the king (at least for now). all of the team members have their own computers (except for the sketch artist but he actually doesn't seem to need one yet). so at this point there won't be sallary and hardware expenses. i thought most of the costs on the game should go with the development - for example we won't write our own engine, we'll use what's available because the clock is ticking and we don't want to spend 1-2 years in engine development right now. maybe for the second or the third title but not now. we still haven't decided which one to use but will probably start with some free or less expensive one (the nebula device is free of charge and seems to be great; powerrender costs $5500 and seems to offer everything $100000 engines do). the motion capture process will cost some money too (my first impression is that it'll go up to $5000).

by the way if you need a gfx artist at some point, you can take a look at my portfolio @ http://tldstudios.com/pro (i do design for living) - i'll be glad to work with you (or anyone who finds my skills suitable. i can do / revamp your game website, do interfaces, skins - whatever you'll need. but my portfolio says it all.)


cliffski >> unfortunatelly we don't have any previous experience. however i think showing a working demo of the game can probably attract someone's attention. i know "good idea" sounds amateurish but i don't know any other way to name the good ideas ;-)

Edited by - pro_01 on January 24, 2002 4:23:33 AM

Buying a pre-existing engine can save valuable development time. And when you consider the amount of time it would take to develop it yourself and then the amount you would theoretically pay the individuals involved in the development of the engine you can easily weigh out whether or not you should buy an engine or try to create your own. From the sounds of it, you''d be better off buying an engine and working with it. Remember though, there''s the learning period for the engine as well and time is money.

The actual "cost of development" is normally personnel and software/hardware costs. If you''re wanting to use motion capture, well, that''s obviously an additional cost and from what I hear, its pretty expensive. Maybe things have changed since I last looked at it though.

Good luck!
Charles Galyon

yes, learning someone else''s engine probably requres some time but since we are new - we still have to start somewhere - our leading coder will have to see how the things are going in order to start our own engine development at a later time.

by the way if you ever would like to give my services a try - i am always available.

CGalyon, I wonder if you could tell me a little more about your experience with contract art.

- How do you find artists? Do you post projects at GamaSutra and other websites?
- How much have you payed for, say, a single model or texture set?
- Do you usually get what you wanted? Are they willing to revise/redo their work until you''re satisfied?

Any advice you can offer is appreciated

Btw, regarding motion capture: I would think there is existing data you could buy for standard stuff like running, jumping, shooting, etc... certainly this would be cheaper than doing it yourself. Of course $5000 isn''t that much anyway, and perhaps you need some unique motions.

eric >> actually we don''t plan to do motion capture ourselves. i found 2 websites that offer something interesting:

www.e-motek.com''s UNICA system allows the user to combine pre-captured sequences any way he wants and this way get the poses he needs. the cost per move varies from $55 to $240 (depending on the move and the number of frames it uses). they claim that this way you get only the data you need and don''t waste time to capture and clear the moves by hand.

www.lifeforms.com''s Studio XT is sold with the massive collection of 750 captured moves. the good thing here is that there are motions that can be applied to alien forms or animals. the price is $495! just perfect! they also have what''s called ReelMotion - a physics and collision package. i think this is a great deal. at least for beginners like us.

of course Poser can also be used but i don''t think the time we''ll need to adjust the moves worths it.

any other ideas?

Eric,

Thus far to recruit contract art I use forums that I attend and connections through other people. Whenever posting a job offering, I try to be as straight-forward as possible and tell them exactly what I''m looking for. My last contracted 3d artist did a great job and I hope to have the opportunity to work with him again.

I cannot disclose exactly how much I paid, but it depended on the complexity of the model. Typically this would range between $20 - $100 for a single model. The artist would skin every model prior to sending it down.

And in the contract I always include a section stating that I reserve the right to reject a piece of art, but that the artist can revise it until we finally agree on it. In other words, you''re best off if you get lucky enough to find an artist who''s mental concepts closely fit your own. Either that or you provide concept art everytime. Its also wise to speak with the artist frequently so that he/she gets a clear idea of what you want. It is in both of your best interests to get the model done as quickly as possible.

My last advice is to always negotiate with the artist for the fee upfront so that neither of you is surprised at the end. Always have a binding contract (NDA as well) and make sure the artist has signed and return faxed/mailed the original back to you. And good luck finding a compatible artist!

Charles Galyon