I''ve been following this with a lot of interest but relatively little understanding. But I think I now get the picture. At the start:

The player (PC) creates a character. Can he choose skills etc ?

PC then goes to opening screen which would presumably have to be some sort of hall / school / vehicle etc..

Assume this is a school game. PC has four (say) choices:
Go to maths class
Go to gym
Go to yard
Play truant

Whichever choice is made then a first story node opens. Let''s say PC goes to the gym. He then has choices of playing a game of basketball, getting into a conversation with the gym teacher etc... Each of these in turn lead to different nodes.

Just looking at it like this it seems to me that a game like this would have to have literally hundreds of separate stories all pre-programmed to an extent. The only way out it seems is if the story nodes are circular. For example I go to the gym, have a game of basketball after which the gym teacher tells me to go to maths class so I play truant. After playing truant for a bit Dad catches me an I''m sent back to school to do the maths class (sigh )

My question is, what do you see as the limits here?

superpig: Thank you for the better example.

Symphonic:

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In constructing a storyline for purposes of static, linear entertainment (such as a book or movie) it is indeed very true that a major thematic plot-arc should formulate the ''nodes'' of plot progression, however, this is (in as much as my personal experience has demonstrated) not how life works, and in creating this structure, our colleagues endeavor to move computer games more towards a reflection of what life and experience itself may offer us in terms of shaping our reality around our actions.

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I agree completely that dramatic stories and real life work differently. But if the goal is to produce dramatic stories, then I suggest the focus should be on modeling dramatic stories, not modeling real life.


Oluseyi:
Now I''m getting confused too. What it first sounded like is the user plays a game and the machine somehow picks up the highlights and translates that into a story.

But then the latest post seems to say you want a pre-existing major storyline which the player can choose to participate in or not (star wars). And if the player does not choose to participate, then the game will still generate some things to do (farming challenges).

This doesn''t seem to be able to generate dynamic story arcs. Or more likely, I''m missing something.

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Original post by JSwing
I''m getting confused too. What it first sounded like is the user plays a game and the machine somehow picks up the highlights and translates that into a story.

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This is one level of application, and it can be implemented to feed back into the game. For example, say you''re a knight and you go off questing and finally kill a dragon. Well, the news will travel and bards and minstrels will begin to sing your praises (imagine walking into a tavern somewhere and hearing a bard sing (badly) about your feats of valor, greatly exaggerated). It would also serve as a neat way of providing a recap (I can''t think of a genre that requires this other than sports, but the technology is perfect for the interactive fiction genre).

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But then the latest post seems to say you want a pre-existing major storyline which the player can choose to participate in or not (star wars). And if the player does not choose to participate, then the game will still generate some things to do (farming challenges).

This doesn''t seem to be able to generate dynamic story arcs. Or more likely, I''m missing something.

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This is the more games-related application, I suppose. I mean, very few developers would want to expend numerous man-hours creating vast vistas of terrain for the user to explore - and then have the user go off and farm throughout on a tiny patch of land. So this would be a way for the user to be drawn into more exploration, more dramatic events and to provide a model of consistency. For example, if you''ve ever read The RPG Cliches Game, you will probably be aware of how much stuff in the game is dependent on the user. If there''s a burning house/village, it will never finish burning until the user is done with it; then, it will suddenly burn/explode/collapse with the user escaping in the nick of time (in an event to tack drama on rather than make it integral).

With this system, the user could be trapped inside (there would be another way), could be inside the house when it collapses (you''d "miraculously" be under a slab of concrete which protected you from the fire, and be rescued by fire fighters the next day) or could even be outside when the house burnt - without the requisite item. What then? Well, either the item was fire proof, so it would survive (but if you don''t get there in time it might be found by emergency services and you''d then have to figure out a way to get it from them ) or it would burn (say, an important document) and you''d have to find another means of obtaining the information it contained. All these alternate story paths would only be possible if the system could respond to event and plit nodes and create alternatives dynamically yet consistent with the existing narrative/storyline.

I hope that clears things up.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

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Original post by Crydee
The player (PC) creates a character. Can he choose skills etc ?

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These are game-specific questions that are left to each game''s design crew. We''re more about creating a generally applicable methodology irrespective of genre. For example, this system could be used in sports games (commentary), in RTS games (reports from the battlefront), etc.

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Assume this is a school game. PC has four (say) choices:
Go to maths class
Go to gym
Go to yard
Play truant

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Actually, the way I see it would be more like this:

You are a new student at City High; today is your first day. In your right hand is a schedule, and it says you have math in 5 minuts in room 309. The door to your left says "105, Principal". The next door down the hall reads "107". You spot the stairs further down the hall, on the right.

Now the player could choose to go to the stairs, climb upstairs and find room 309 for math, or they could ignore the stairs and decide to look around - maybe end up in the cafeteria. As you move into the caf, the system would spawn the people who should logically be there at that time. If you decide to interact with them, then you''ve opened up that particular story node for exploration. If you change your mind and go back to math class, well, now you''re late. The teacher may ask for an explanation (you could say "I''m new, had a little trouble finding my way around." Of course the class may laugh at that - especially if the building layout is simple - but it''ll get you off the hook), giving rise to a dramatic situation - another story node. Because you came late, the teacher may develop an idea that you''re not a serious student, and so on.

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Just looking at it like this it seems to me that a game like this would have to have literally hundreds of separate stories all pre-programmed to an extent.

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With the way I''ve outlined it above, you''d see that it wouldn''t necessarily be so. NPCs could have personalities, motives and specific pieces of information (which may or may not be useful), which will drive them to interact with you based on how you interact with them - which gives rise to the story.

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My question is, what do you see as the limits here?

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Hopefully, I''ve been able to clarify the situation for you so you can see that the system would actually remove limitations rather than impose them.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

I just thought this would be a useful reference (for those who haven''t read it); I plan to pass it on to my professor as well. Kylotan posted the link in a thread on the Game Writing forum:

I have no words & I must design

What I find most useful is the clarification that games are not stories - stories are inherently linear while games are not. Firmly embedding this notion in our minds will free us to think more creatively about narrative interpolation.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

Stories are not inherently linear...just the stories that we''ve been reading and writing for the past thousands of years. Or, perhaps I should say that stories while inherently linear in structure are not limited to being linear. Or at least, this is what I believe.

The oldest story in the English language (well, it''s in Old English but it still counts) is Beowulf. Beowulf comes to us from the Anglo-Saxons, who for the longest time had an oral storytelling tradition. The skop was the bard or poet in their society, prized for their ability to create elaborate stories expounding on the martial prowess of a tribe''s greatest warriors. Beowulf is a story that comes from this tradition, and centuries after it was told (and retold, and retold, and therefore changed in the process), it was committed to parchment and frozen forever. Still, even as late as a few years ago Seamus Heany (a famous poet) retranslated it, and therefore *reinterpreted* it. Retelling and reinterpretation are not beyond the medium of storytelling. In fact, this kind of reinterpretation is what gives us modern tales like those of King Arthur and Robin Hood, for example.

If a static medium like the written form can offer so much versatiity, certainly a computer game can offer some too? Surely we haven''t explored all the different ways in which stories can be told.

This is of course just my opinion, more of a belief actually, but so is what the author of ''I have no words and I must design'' is sharing with you in his article. There is no fundamental ''truth'' that says games are not stories. They''re just not stories in the very limited sense that most people consider them in.

R.

I''m not comparing movies to books but movies tell stories. Even if they are in a different medium and can convey information to its ''audience'' in a variety of ways as compared to books, in the terms of linearity they are similar. Has anyone ever seen the movie "Go" or "Memento". In each pieces of the movie are linear but as a whole the movie is not linear but do tell one story. If I remember right in ''Go'' there were three linear stories, shown in a row and the three stories intertwined so at the end you had a big story which your mind put together. In ''Memento'' the whole movie is done backwards. Small linear patches in ''forward time'' that were presented backwards. (Don''t watch the movie unless u are in the mood to keep your brain in a thinking mode) Something I''m not sure of is are plot twists considered linear? Have you seen ''Wild Things'' or ''The Game''? They are both linear in time yes, but not in what you think is going on. Is linearity in a story only considered on the level of time? The reason i brought this up is because in the case of an interactive narrative or a game using an interactive plot system, you can easily be non-linear on a plot level.

-potential energy is easily made kinetic-

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Original post by Tacit
Stories are not inherently linear...just the stories that we''ve been reading and writing for the past thousands of years. Or, perhaps I should say that stories while inherently linear in structure are not limited to being linear. Or at least, this is what I believe.

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I think we''d do well to distinguish between what I''d like to call "linear" and "static" media.

Static media cannot be changed. They are set in stone, and any attempt at significant reinterpretation would violate the fundamental "truth" or content that is in the medium. Examples include histories and works such as the Bible. Their inverse is, of course, dynamic media. Most media can be considered dynamic at some level, and I think your Beowulf example is an instance of media "dynamicism." Note, however, that in order to reinterpret the work (and therefore give us a dynamic variant), Heany first had to experience/absorb it in linear and relatively static fashion.

Linear media progress from one notion to another, independent of the user/audience. They may contain unexpected twists and turns, but those are built into the medium. Most of our media are linear - all recorded forms, at least. Live performance, on the other hand, is a non-linear medium because the performers can interact with and influence the audience, and vice versa. While some media may present occurences out of sequence - Memento, Go and other excellent examples given by Infinisearch - the final story is still linear in terms of user interaction.

When I use the term non-linear, I speak of the type of dynamicism introduced with games, where the user''s choices and preferences completely alter the outcome and thus the experience. Imagine if you could stimulate the main character in an action movie: make the right choices and you fulfill the objective; make the wrong ones and your movie ends significantly earlier than other people in the "theatre."

Not a great example ("Hey! I paid $7.50 for this!")

There was a science fiction short story about dream theatres and personal dream machines, in which users experienced "dreams" (more like idyllic fantasies) concocted by people deemed to have natural skill (it was a direct neural interface). The key part was that since the interface was direct, the user''s tastes and preference would "color" the dream and customize it to have greater impact on the user.

The full definition of this paradigm has not been agreed on; it is a continuing search to discover what works and what doesn''t, where interactivity adds to "non-linearity" and where it detracts from it. Even the vocabulary of discussion is not finalized. We merely compare, contrast and discuss the ideas and ideals of the many here. I do not presume to be some sort of authority, or even to have the final say within the limited scope of this thread. I aim simply to stimulate thought and creativity, and hopefully to get to play/experience some of your innovative products!

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!

Very good points Oluseyi and well said. What I meant to emphasize in my previous post was that in many cases the ''authoring'' process occurs through the experience of whoever is interpreting the events outlined in the story. This is an idea I think has potential with respect to interactive media. Also, approaching storytelling in games with what we''ve learned from traditional media (such as writing novels) won''t lead us where we need to go. We have to adapt our tools and knowledge to embrace the unique storytelling possibilities of the interactive medium potentially offered by games.

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Original post by Tacit
Very good points Oluseyi and well said.

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Thank you.

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What I meant to emphasize in my previous post was that in many cases the ''authoring'' process occurs through the experience of whoever is interpreting the events outlined in the story. This is an idea I think has potential with respect to interactive media. Also, approaching storytelling in games with what we''ve learned from traditional media (such as writing novels) won''t lead us where we need to go. We have to adapt our tools and knowledge to embrace the unique storytelling possibilities of the interactive medium potentially offered by games.

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I couldn''t have put it better myself. While we can learn much from existing media, interactive storytelling/media are new forms of narrative and entertainment, and we will need to develop tools, techniques and language appropriate to them.

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Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!