quote: Original post by SpittingTrashcan
Gods and demons are one such type of reactor. In more advanced times, it is possible to apply algorithmic and mathematical insight to the rituals, giving rise to the theory of "psycho-science." Using psycho-science, machines can be created to automatically enact rituals.

robert heinlein (well, probably one of his characters rather):
"One man''s ''magic'' is another man''s engineering."
there was another good one, something like "it is impossible to tell the difference between magic and a sufficiently advanced technology" or something to that effect (damn i suck with quotes)...

Why are people so intent on making a science out of magic? It''s magic goddamit, not chemistry.

The Ultimas use one of the best systems of magic that I can think of, the combination of reagents (physical components required for a spell) and words of power (as Adastra pointed out). Put together in different combinations, you will get different (or no) results.

But, there should be some kind of unexplicable part as well, otherwise what''s keeping anyone who can mix two reagents together from becoming a magic-wielder?

Keep the magic in the magic system! Don''t turn it into some kind of watered down alchemy or something.

Ever read the ''Man of His Word'' series, by (can''t remember the author, sorry). In this fantasy series, certain people had magical powers which they gained from knowing a word of power. If I told you my word of power, you would also get the same powers but we would then both have them at half of what they were when I knew it alone. But, if I had knowledge of more than one word, I became exponentially more powerful. That was a pretty neat idea, I thought.

R.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Why are people so intent on making a science out of magic? It''s magic goddamit, not chemistry.

that''s simple: they want something else fun and nifty to do in their games/books/whatever... i''m speaking in terms of a game now... if magic is completely inexplicable and mysterious, you get some spells that you can cast. if there has been research into it, and discoveries made, than rather than being handed magic, people can figure out the details and create their own bigger better spell. this adds a whole new dimension to the gameplay.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Krez...it was a rhetorical question, but meant to make a point. I can imagine why you would want to come up with a system like this, but I think magic shouldn''t be made into too much of an exact science on the surface. In other words, sure, establish an underlying structure so that you can design a game, but keep it mysterious for the player.

Just an idea.

R.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Krez...it was a rhetorical question, but meant to make a point.

my bad... i do that a lot...

quote: I can imagine why you would want to come up with a system like this, but I think magic shouldn't be made into too much of an exact science on the surface. In other words, sure, establish an underlying structure so that you can design a game, but keep it mysterious for the player.

it all depends on if you want the player to be able to develop their own spells, or research into improving existing spells, or figure out the components (reagents, "power words") of an existing spell before being able to use it. for some games this would be completely unnecessary (and annoying), but for others (i.e. an RPG where getting more/better magic spells is more than buying "ICE3" from a shop) it adds a great deal to the game.
think about this: imagine a world where magic actually exists. in such a world there must be someone who knows how to use it, otherwise how would the spells have been discovered/developed/researched? who first figured out how to cast that ICE3 spell? whoever it was must have had some understanding of the mechanics behind the magic (unless they randomly mixed "magical" ingredients while chanting random latinesque "words" and got real lucky). some people are interested in such a thing; they would enjoy a game where you can continue the research rather than using hand-me-down spells.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Edited by - krez on January 16, 2002 3:38:08 PM

Sure...I see how this could be attractive to some people. Yet another spin on the resource management/tech tree idea that most RPG/RTS games function under.

In another fantasy series I read many, many years ago (I believe it was called 'Master of Five Magics', by Lyndon Hardy), the author created this elaborate system of magic whereby magical power could manifest itself along five basic lines (or schools). They were thaumaturgy, alchemy, sorcery, and I can't remember the others. Anyways, each magic had a different philosophy behind it and granted very specific types of powers. I'm not sure how I would find it now, but back then I remember thinking that it was a pretty clever way to explain magic and formed an interesting structure.

Fantasy novels can hold a lot of good ideas as to how a system of magic can work, and occasionally an author will come along who has a very original way of thinking about magic, different from all the cliched systems. Reading some of these old series might be fruitful grounds for research.

Ursula K. LeGuin's 'Earthsea' trilogy also did a very good job of describing a system of magic.

R.

Edited by - Tacit on January 16, 2002 4:06:28 PM

Also look at Ultima VIII it had one of the most cumbersome magic systems I can remember, but despite my loathing it did have some cute ideas running behind it.

My work on magic systems implies that (as usual) there is no end-all be-all magic system to be found. I wouldn''t use fire/earth/air/water though, because it''s hard to make up excuses for alot of effects (Where does teleportation fit the mold?), and because, in my own very humble opinion, it''s boring.

For a recent design, I recommended a system that requires the collection of "influences" which can be absorbed by magic talismans. The character may then release influences in combinations to produce a desired effect (order of choice matters).

As far as implementation works, you will want to use a set of rules in order to simplify the process of creating spells, however, as has been said already, unless your game-world requires you to do so (as in my previous example), it would be best not to let the player identify the mechanics behind spells.

George D. Filiotis
Are you in support of the ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide? You should be!

quote: Original post by Tacit
In another fantasy series I read many, many years ago (I believe it was called ''Master of Five Magics'', by Lyndon Hardy)

Wow someone else actually read that series. I thought his system of magic was quite well done too - he had a little piece at the start of each book explaining a part of it.

And I agree with Symphonic - Fire/Water/Earth/Air has been done to death. But any magic system is better than none (eg. diablo).

Daggerfall, an enormous RPG released a while ago, had spell "classes" similar to the ones Tacit mentions. Like thaumaturgy, alchemy, etc. It was VERY complicated.

Master of Magic, a turn-based strategy similar to Civilization, had 5 classes as follows:

Chaos: anything to do with corruption/destruction or mutation (mostly fire magic)

Nature: earth magic

Sorcery: magic magic (!!), spells which dealt with blocking up other people''s spells, etc. Also air magic.

Life: holy and healing magic. positive enchantments.
it also had spells for controlling travel between planes.

Death: infernal and killing/draining magic. negative enchantments. it also incorporated undead and necromatic spells.

An interesting part was the way the classes interacted. Life magic usually opposed Death and Chaos. Nature magic was immune to many of the other classes, while Sorcery magic tinkered with all the other classes.

I always thought the Ultima chants were cool too, always felt like I could try different combinations of words and come up with cool spells.

Ok, so lets actually compose our magic world, ok?

We will have 5 major elements - Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Energy;
5 Secondary elements - Chaos, Darkness, Light, Nature, Void;

And we may add some other elements on our way...
Also, lets add simplest law for each element -
You need Energy to keep the shape or "form" of magic element when you give form to it;

lets have a Unit of element;
1 Unit of fire need 10 energy to keep it balanced inside a form;
(as most chaotic)
1 Unit of water require 5 energy to be balanced in form;
1 Unit of air require 3 energy to be balanced in form;
1 Unit of earth require 1 energy to be balanced in form;

an example - take 1 unit of fire and give it a form of sphere(fireball) and give it the energy of 5 units;

Fireball - 1 unit to be in form; 5 units to hold; total 6 units of energy;

Same with other forms...
This is the beginning, so just post your ideas about simplest laws of magic like this one.
Thanks to everyone who read and post on this topic. I hope we will get to some "useful" end..

Cheers!




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