I have some questions regarding the D20 system used in making computer games. What rulebook does this system accompany? Am I allowed to use everything in the second edition handbook? What rules can I use/can''t I use? Is there a seperate handbook that I have to purchase? Can I make money off of the game I make if I use the D20 system? I tried to look at the WotC official site but unforunately I could not find the answers to my questions there and was hoping that someone on this board is familiar with the D20 System. -Thanks alot Ryan

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"So crucify the ego, before it's far too late. To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical, and you will come to find that we are all one mind. Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable."
- Tool
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Edited by - wayfarerx on January 8, 2002 11:05:04 PM

Well I''m no lawyer, but WotC are pretty tough when it comes to their property. I think if your system bears some resemblance to theirs you might be in trouble.

But why would you want to use their system anyway? Surely you could come up with something at least as good?

Don''t use the D20 system, it''s terrible. The resolution of possibilities it allows for is very low, and a computer could easily allow for a D2000 system that works on essentially the same principles.

Make up your own, if you''re even thinking about making a game that will be turn-based, you should take advantage of the incredible amount of processing power at your fingertips (since small delays for damage calculation are permissible in situations such as yours).

What''s more, definitely make up the races and creatures in your world, it would be a waste of time to re-make AD&D 2 for the computer, it was designed for play as a pen&paper RPG.

George D. Filiotis
Are you in support of the ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide? You should be!

quote: Original post by Symphonic
Don''t use the D20 system, it''s terrible.

While it has its weaknesses, I''ll have to disagree with you here. I think it''s one of the better generalized RPG systems out there.

quote:
The resolution of possibilities it allows for is very low, and a computer could easily allow for a D2000 system that works on essentially the same principles.

I fail to see how increasing the resolution of the random number creates more possibilities or effects how the game plays. Attack 17 vs AC 15 = hit, Attack 1700 vs AC 1500 = hit.

quote:
Make up your own, if you''re even thinking about making a game that will be turn-based, you should take advantage of the incredible amount of processing power at your fingertips (since small delays for damage calculation are permissible in situations such as yours).

D20 is not only for turn-based stuff, but realtime as well. And I think there''s better things to do with the CPU than run some overly-complex rule system (AI, physics, eye-candy).
What''s more, presenting the user with a system they are familiar with cuts down on time they have to spend figuring out how to play the game.

quote:
What''s more, definitely make up the races and creatures in your world, it would be a waste of time to re-make AD&D 2 for the computer, it was designed for play as a pen&paper RPG.

AD&D 2 != D20 System (I feel sorry for the people who try to make AD&D 2 rules into a computer game!) D20 was designed as a generalized system, not just for pen & paper. And by using the D20 system you are in no way forced to use WOTC''s races, weapons, armor, etc. D20 is simply a system to resolve conflicts (my sword vs. your armor, your magic vs. my saving throw).

"So crucify the ego, before it''s far too late. To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical, and you will come to find that we are all one mind. Capable of all that''s imagined and all conceivable."
- Tool
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The D20 system is popular for P&P games because it is fast and simple - you roll one dice and you have a result. Far better than rolling 53 differently shaped dice and spending the next half an hour doing multivariate calculus just to determine who hits first.

However, computers are so much better at complicated maths than humans, you could devise a much more realistic system without it taking three hours just for one round of combat, or requiring players with a degree in advanced mathematics. So the only real advantage of using the D20 system in a CRPG is familiarity - the players know the rules already, and therefore they know what to expect in all their fights. This may be important to you, it may not be.

Excuse my previous post, I was inebriate at the time.

Wayfarer effectively pointed out all the stupid things I said...

I should lay down the booze, get some fresh air, maybe take some potassium bromide...

D20 is good for realtime combat, you''re entirely right, turnbased systems could use something a bit more spiffy though.

I don''t know why I made that comment about resolution... it scarcely matters once you''re dealing with more than ten possible outcomes.

OK, AD&D 2 is certainly unrelated to all this, forget I mentioned it.

Even in my sober state I think it is worth while to run a thorough and complex rule system if you can spare the processor time to do it.

I also think that it is always a good idea to use a rule system that players are not familiar with, because it lets you use nuance that the player will come to identify with your game, and because it takes more player involvment to really get into the grit of understanding exactly what''s going on under the hood of your game world. I just think it''s more immersive that way.

George D. Filiotis
Are you in support of the ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide? You should be!

quote: Original post by Symphonic
Excuse my previous post, I was inebriate at the time.

LOL. I''ve done that a few times on this board as well

quote:
Even in my sober state I think it is worth while to run a thorough and complex rule system if you can spare the processor time to do it.

Agreed. D20 is not the end-all be-all RPG system. I do think that it''s valid (especially for real-time).

quote:
I also think that it is always a good idea to use a rule system that players are not familiar with, because it lets you use nuance that the player will come to identify with your game, and because it takes more player involvment to really get into the grit of understanding exactly what''s going on under the hood of your game world. I just think it''s more immersive that way.

Very valid point. D20 can also be moderately intimidating to new players. These are the kind of questions that need to be addressed on a project-by-project basis.



"So crucify the ego, before it''s far too late. To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical, and you will come to find that we are all one mind. Capable of all that''s imagined and all conceivable."
- Tool
------------------------------

I still agree with your first post Symphonic.

Rules are hardly going to hurt today''s processors (unless they''re really really complex), especially if you use bit-shifting. I think I''d prefer some degree of realism over a few extra cycles.

And resolution is important, otherwise why use a d20 instead of a d10. There are diminishing returns, but for a flexible system, you''d probably want to go with something a little higher.

I dont know why you would want to use the D20 system at all.. computers have dragged along physical limitations far too often for far too long, there´s no need to bring another one aboard.

I´m sure you can think up a more complex, more interesting and more realistic (if that´s what you want) system which doesn´t even resemble the D20 system the slightest...

Dice-based systems exist because of the phsyical limitations... now you´re free, why carry the burden along?