@taby what I meant is that my opinion is that clozapine is probably one of the worst anti psychotic medicines out there and should only be used as a last resort. I got a bit fed up because I just had to debate with my psychiatrist who was like “what's the problem of doing weekly bloodwork and facing a huge list of side effects as long as you stay away from the hospital?” How about my quality of life outside the hospital, how about drowsiness and weight gain?

So here's the deal, this kind of research is toxic in my humble opinion as she will probably quote it next time. And I am not attacking you in any way for being part of it, I just thing it's not the kind of research which will actually improve our lives.

There's tons of anti antipsychotics now and I believe a doctor who prescribes clozapine because seroquel (quetiapine on this side of the pond) is not working properly it's plain dumb. Seroquel turns into an antipsychotic only after a certain threshold of dosage, otherwise it's just an anti depressant.

Comparing two medicines in this area of research is just dumb. Every brain is different and that's why you usually go through all of them before landing on clozapine. I am pretty sure it's common sense knowledge that some antipsychotic will work wonders on someone while having the opposite effect on someone else.

About suicides, there's plenty of patients who commit suicide because of the accumulated side effects of medicines, not because “they are crazy”.

I mean no offense to no one, it's just my personal opinion.

As an advice for you @taby , ask about monthly injectables, those keep people out of the hospital even more and can have a lot softer side effects. Also look into the medical keto diet, for some people with schizophrenia it does wonders after 3-6 months of medical ketosis. Then again if clozapine is you cup of tea and keeps you afloat with no side effects that's great for you but I am pretty sure you are a rare happy case.

I'm sure there's should be plenty of avenues around a mental illness before picking a medicine invented 60 years ago…

dotnka said:
About suicides, there's plenty of patients who commit suicide because of the accumulated side effects of medicines, not because “they are crazy”.

And what evidence do you base this assumption on? It's a real stretch, in a condition like schizophrenia or bipolar, with extremely high baseline suicides rates, to go and be like “oh yeah that guy killed himselve because of the side-effects of his medication”.
This is also not because “they are crazy”, which is not remotely what I said. But conditions like bipolar have a 15-20% (sucessful) sucide rate, so that's unfortunately what is happening with those disorders.
I'm sure there are some cases of people dying because of treatment or whatever, just like there are people dying from literally anything, including penicilin, water or sliced bread. But it won't be the norm, and the amount of suicides prevented by treatment will outweigh this, so it's not even an argument then.
It's also definately not going to be the random person that conspiracy nut here allegedly saw jump off a hospital. And to see a random mental patient commit suicide and think it's because the treament sucks, is honestly really insulting to that persons personal struggles.

Juliean said:

dotnka said:
About suicides, there's plenty of patients who commit suicide because of the accumulated side effects of medicines, not because “they are crazy”.

And what evidence do you base this assumption on? It's a real stretch, in a condition like schizophrenia or bipolar, with extremely high baseline suicides rates, to go and be like “oh yeah that guy killed himselve because of the side-effects of his medication”.

Theres plenty of evidence, its just all covered up by the institution, its just madness. next time they get out the acuphase injections I probably am not going to see you or any of the doctors lining up for their taste of the medicine.

The medication makes u feel like utter hell, its chemical torture to be on, its plain as day obvious but the world is mad.

The only sense I can make of it, is mental health care is a form of corporal punishment for people that used drugs here and there in their lives making them guilty of harming themselves with it, but then guess what happens, the institution comes in to finish the job.

@juliean I won't start an argument here, this is my last post here, here's a list of “gpt” generated common side effects of antipsychotics, you want to further your knowledge just read the prospect of Xanax, don't even to got Clozapine.

Common Side Effects of Antipsychotic Medications

1. Extrapyramidal Symptoms (EPS)

• Tremors and Muscle Stiffness: These movement disorders can include tremors, rigidity, and abnormal movements of the face and body.

• Akathisia: A feeling of restlessness and an inability to stay still.

2. Weight Gain and Metabolic Changes

• Many second-generation antipsychotics can lead to significant weight gain, which increases the risk of diabetes and cardiovascular diseases.

• Increased Cholesterol Levels: Some patients may experience elevated cholesterol due to medication effects.

3. Sedation and Dizziness

• Patients often report feeling excessively sleepy or sedated, which can affect daily functioning.

• Dizziness may occur, particularly when transitioning from sitting or lying down to standing.

4. Hormonal Changes

• Hyperprolactinemia: Elevated prolactin levels can cause symptoms such as breast enlargement in men, milky discharge from breasts, and menstrual irregularities in women.

• Sexual Dysfunction: This includes decreased libido and erectile dysfunction, affecting both genders.

5. Tardive Dyskinesia (TD)

• A serious condition characterized by repetitive involuntary movements, with a cumulative risk that increases with prolonged use of antipsychotics, particularly first-generation types.

6. Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS)

• A rare but life-threatening condition associated with high doses of typical antipsychotics, presenting with symptoms like fever, muscle rigidity, and altered mental status.

7. Other Effects

• Anticholinergic Effects: These include dry mouth, blurred vision, constipation, and urinary retention.

• Cardiovascular Issues: Antipsychotics can lead to changes in heart rhythm and increased risk of stroke or blood clots.

• Emotional Effects: Some patients may experience anxiety, agitation, or depressive symptoms as side effects of treatment.

You know when's the highest suicide rate for people with schizophrenia? Right after leaving the hospital after a psychotic episode. Usually when you are under psychosis you won't dwell much on suicide, when you are aware of how your life looks like in reality it starts to look like a good option having a quick exit.

I am pretty sure the percentage of people having crippling visual and auditory hallucinations is low, those I believe are the ones you count as suicides because of the disease. Most suicides occur not because something in their brain dictates it but because of social isolation, lack of support, a very poor quality of life which usually just down spirals to worse and worse conditions like homeless-ness and forced hospitalization.

Look, I don't know your story, I don't know how close you are to having symptoms, I'll tell you this, me, personally, I consider suicide not when I am delirious but when I'm fully aware and sane and understand I'll have to live with the list above for the rest of my life.

I have a saying for my close circle, please let me be crazy, don't let me become a vegetable if it gets down to that.

This conversation has gone on far enough (if not too far). Closing.