@Vilem Otte well, yes - that's the way it is - the whole process adapts to the needs of the project: even taking a piece of someone else's will not help - it's easier to use the Data Exchange Buffer inside the program and everyone thinks about the Server: any server is the same computer, only standing separately and having specifics

what is done in the inside of your own Computer and game programs - all the same interaction and will display the server - it only transmits data: writing server utilities separately is another branch of specific tasks for pinging

@Clevrer Once again, I recommend that the author of the topic go to crowdfunding with a ready-made demo that modelers in motion can just create: I can even offer a support option - for example, you can embed a video from YouTube - if we are partners, then you can embed a video from an affiliate channel - but also money collected somehow to share too: but I have it according to screensavers, namely, according to custom gameplay about a particular game, this should be done by the author separately

sorcery dangeon to earth

Good morning everyone, loving this discussion!

@GeneralJist we aren't doing an ai generated game. We are instituting an LLM into our NPCs for questing. That also doesn't mean that programmers won't use AI to check their code or complete their code.

@Vilem Otte Aside from the infrastructure for which we need funding and which I expect will start at a smaller scale unless I get picked up by a major publisher--!which I am not counting on!--I can't imagine needing more than 4-5 servers at launch and I can do that for $500 a month, the networking aspect is absolutely my biggest concern. I know it is a nightmare, and it gets solved every day by teams all over the world. I mean, just think of Minecraft-small indie team that made a game and look at it now. Or Beyond All Reason, an indie team makes the game completely free just because they love RTS, a genre that hasn't been popular in 10+ years.

I may not be well known yet, or have an amazing track record of games behind me, but I have been in the industry and I do know people, some of them in reasonably high places between EA, Adobe, and Pixar (among others) for example…6 degrees of separation.

@Gnollrunner “Statements like this are fine when you are actually hiring, but it comes off as a bit arrogant, for what at this point amounts to free labor. You are likely going to have to take what you can get and hope you can find some reasonably competent people.” I don't know what to say to this except that in every project I have ever worked on-in and outside of games this is a requirement. My first big project was a rev share and this is what was required. I have a vision for how it will look and play…One must have standards, no?

I've had this project in my back pocket for 20 years now. And I hold no illusions as to what challenges are in store for me. If you think the procedural land is going to be tough, I am less concerned about that and more about the procedural creature system! But similar to you, I'm going to die trying.

A man has to try.

Clevrer said:

@Gnollrunner “Statements like this are fine when you are actually hiring, but it comes off as a bit arrogant, for what at this point amounts to free labor. You are likely going to have to take what you can get and hope you can find some reasonably competent people.” I don't know what to say to this except that in every project I have ever worked on-in and outside of games this is a requirement. My first big project was a rev share and this is what was required. I have a vision for how it will look and play…One must have standards, no?

I saw your post on INAT. You are lucky you got no responses (so far) except for the anti-MMO bot (which got several upvotes itself). I've seen people ripped apart for similar stuff. With most projects like this people are getting paid. That's the difference. If you are paying people, you can enforce whatever standards you like. You can do that here also, but I seriously doubt you will get anyone to help you.

Let me ask you, how did your rev-share project fair? Most don't make it to first base, and most of those that finish, don't make enough money to compensate the team that built them.

But back to this project. It's very long term, and you are asking people to spend thousands of hours working for free. Realistically there is little chance they will ever get anything out of it other than some experience. I've tried to get collaborators myself, but I've come to realize that it's not going to happen without a good-looking working demo, and even then, it may be difficult.

Everyone who reads your post knows you are a guy who wants to make an MMORPG. Fair enough. But it's not a real company and trying to make it sound like one makes you seem like a charlatan. I'm not saying you are, but it comes off like that. So why call yourself a company? It's better to come off as a serious hobbyist. Again, if you had funding and you were paying salaries, it would be a completely different story.

In any case it's your project and you have to use your best judgement, but that's how I see it.

Again, good luck.

@Clevrer I also want to say that here I am asking you about crowdfunding

whether you will go out to him or not: but there is really no answer yet

nevertheless, you assure that the project, as it were, existed and existed before

that is, the project takes a long time to develop, but there is no external wrapper ?!

___________

for example, I can be your Project Manager, but what project?!

what project exactly? besides what is known this MMOG PvP : what is the scale

what it should look like: see an example from similar projects

___________

At least I already see inconsistencies:

1 : it is not specified if this project is for PC or Mobile market

2: what is the budget for the project: is it realistic to implement it

3 : Approximate terms about 4 years ? it's too long

___________

then what is the salary of the Project Manager - within what limits

or is it just a project of creation campaign

and not a company whose company name is not even indicated

___________

and so on a bunch of questions in a column

especially the question is it remote work or office

since now you can build a project only at a remote job and that's it

other options are very costly in terms of money and time

___________

and, as it were, in the next completion, I must say

that PvP is interesting only in the mobile segment of the market

but it is occupied by Tower Defense : from simple games

besides, it is a semi real-time game, and not turn-based at all

but such a game does not cost anything, although it may bring money

anyway, it's outdated

___________

___________

crowdfunding

no company is needed to create your own project

Private is enough and that's it: then sell with Google Play and Steam

even if you or someone else can't, your project can be

start someone up for crowdfunding on IndieGoGo.com

15% fee : but need Marketing Crowdfunding Campaign

___________

if you have money for marketing then you can be

Leader of the Crowdfunding Campaign of the Crowdfunder Group

___________

I can offer Cosmic Project for Mobile Platform and PC as a bonus

there is a cosmic demo in good quality : where for crowdfunders

already suggested where the financial efforts can be directed

we can work together if you want

___________

because I also want a big fantasy

but it takes much longer and I would like to

great MMOG for PC: but there are more users in the Mobile Shpere

therefore it is better to make money in this "mobile segment"

@Gnollrunner

Gnollrunner said:
how did your rev-share project fair?

We spent 3 years on that team and we all put in an enormous amount of effort, and had built up quite a good amount of the world, mechanics, and assets, I mean, it was between 30-40 people over the course of 3 years. The only thing that killed us was the economic crash of 2008 and the company had to cease the project in 2009.

Gnollrunner said:
But it's not a real company and trying to make it sound like one makes you seem like a charlatan. I'm not saying you are, but it comes off like that. So why call yourself a company? It's better to come off as a serious hobbyist.

Perhaps I can phrase things differently, I am a very direct person. And I am going to make this into a company! Sure it's a project, and I want to revitalize a genre that is dying, but I also want to change how the industry itself deals with creatives. I've been through that revolving door--we are disposable. “Oh, you don't like getting paid 45k a year for 80-hour crunch weeks? We'll just hire this kid straight out of college who would sell his soul to work on a game then.”, or: “You are a programmer and we hired you at your skill level but within 2 years you are twice as good and worth twice what we pay you? Well, if you want a raise you have to go to a different company."

I've been working for other people all my life, and when I left the industry it hurt. It was the most rewarding work I have ever done. I am more mature now, have had more experience in business, and I still have the drive. I want to create something real, impactful, something that changes how we do things. I am driven. This game isn't just something that I have been sitting on, (it started as an idea for a graphic novel) but how I think a studio should run, how it can make money, and how the devs can make a living on it. I think about DOTA, for example, AMAZING GAME--and 100% free, always has been. People support the game because it is well-made. The devs that started working on that in the WCIII engine, they didn't get a dime. Now however we have new ways to raise money and support these projects that didn't exist then.

@alice wolfraider I think I haven't understood your question then.

alice wolfraider said:
I am asking you about crowdfunding whether you will go out to him or not

Perhaps I was not clear about crowdsourcer.io--amazing tool btw, I was looking at crowdsourcing elsewhere and I much prefer this approach. We have not completed the setup because we are just now recruiting for the team and I want to have something to show aside from art and writing for the project. I also have an account ready for Indiegogo, but again, I want to have something to show there. Perhaps I am being too hesitant, I've never done crowdsourcing before, and we've never used it on any project I have worked on. While I understand the concept, it's simple enough, I am hesitant to put up a crowdfund too early as it could be a detriment. People pass by it and never come back. I want to have something to put on that front page to draw attention, even if it's just dummy models in a fight sequence and some static Characters in T poses. These are things that I could use a PM for, to help me make these decisions.

alice wolfraider said:
you assure that the project, as it were, existed and existed before that is, the project takes a long time to develop, but there is no external wrapper ?!

I took my idea to a writer some 4-5 months ago, while we were hammering out the story, I was doing market research, planning monetization strategies, creating my GDD, mapping out mechanics and features, investigating what can be done and how realistic my ideas were. When I say the project existed, I am saying that I have put in serious effort to plan this out and I intend to see it through.

alice wolfraider said:
At least I already see inconsistencies: 1 : it is not specified if this project is for PC or Mobile market 2: what is the budget for the project: is it realistic to implement it 3 : Approximate terms about 4 years ? it's too long

To be honest, I didn't think it was important to specify the platform, because it's an MMORPG. I mean, there are a few complete cash-grab games like Black Desert and New World that are ported to Xbox…and do they even make MMORPGs on mobile? I suppose probably…but this will be a Steam release. I assumed any indie team would not be looking at trying to get a title on PS…but I can see how someone could be confused if this were a mobile release. On the indie point, I also assumed anyone interested in an indie team would defacto know this is a remote project.

I try to make it very clear this is a passion project until we can secure funding, so the budget is whatever I can afford to get us to that state. And as for how long it will take to create it, I WANT to shoot for the 4-year mark, but everyone that I have interviewed and taken into the project knows that this could, and probably will go past that mark. It comes up in the interview because I bring it up.

alice wolfraider said:
I must say that PvP is interesting only in the mobile

With all due respect, I absolutely disagree with you here. A lot of games have PvP, and it is always insanely popular. The DOTA 2 prize pool last year was 18.9 MILLION dollars…(for a free-to-play game that is nothing but PvP) money that was raised selling battle passes. Every FPS game is a PvP game, GW2, WoW, LoL…the list goes on. I challenge the idea that PvP is uninteresting. It is my perspective that we have watered down the mechanics, made everything pay to win, and it has discouraged players from enjoying it. Just from the male standpoint, we like to pew-pew and if there is a game that creates an exciting new challenge, it will always be popular.

alice wolfraider said:
we can work together if you want

I'd be interested in hearing more. Perhaps we could set up a call to discuss this. I have a lot on my plate and my time is constantly in demand.

I very much appreciate every ounce of this feedback, from all of you. You have all given me much to think about and I am deeply considering your suggestions and trying to consider how I can better my approach to this. We only this week started recruiting and I have never built a team like this. Worked in one sure, and managed them for others, yes; but this is a new challenge for me, so thank you. If I have overlooked a question or was not clear in my response, I will be happy to revisit it.

Clevrer said:
Aside from the infrastructure for which we need funding and which I expect will start at a smaller scale unless I get picked up by a major publisher--!which I am not counting on!--I can't imagine needing more than 4-5 servers at launch and I can do that for $500 a month, the networking aspect is absolutely my biggest concern. I know it is a nightmare, and it gets solved every day by teams all over the world. I mean, just think of Minecraft-small indie team that made a game and look at it now. Or Beyond All Reason, an indie team makes the game completely free just because they love RTS, a genre that hasn't been popular in 10+ years.

I was quite curious about the cost estimation - the estimation for development & launch isn't unreal (assuming launch isn't guaranteed 1M players of course, at which point it's not a financial problem to scale it anymore).

When thinking about Minecraft, it's important to note that original released Minecraft was vastly different from current versions (it did improve a lot). The team and finance in the project got much bigger than Notch ever imagined. As for RTS genre didn't really disappear, it's more of a different thing. Original single player games were somewhat pushed into background, while competitive multiplayer became the thing. Story driven RTS games were still released (like Spellforce among others), but the community for it didn't really grew. Attempts to grow into wider audience were often mixed with making those games easier and “dumbed down” - which ended up losing what I'd call more conservative RTS audiences.

Clevrer said:
I may not be well known yet, or have an amazing track record of games behind me, but I have been in the industry and I do know people, some of them in reasonably high places between EA, Adobe, and Pixar (among others) for example…6 degrees of separation.

Being in the industry doesn't mean you're recognized - it's problem in every industry. Unless you're literally face of some project, you won't be generally recognized. If you create software that other companies use internally, or for specific goals - you will not be recognized. Although, neither does software or game development to be recognized - there are other careers one pursuits for that (going for an actor (or adult movie actor especially), politician or comedian (these are often exchangable) … or just trash talking on youtube gives you much more public recognition).

Vilem Otte said:
Minecraft was vastly different from current versions

Yes, of course, I'm just making the point that it is not a dead-in-the-water problem is all.

Vilem Otte said:
RTS genre didn't really disappear, it's more of a different thing

I didn't mean to imply that it had disappeared, there are tons of SP RTS being made all the time, quite good ones at that. I just meant to say that BAR released the latest most interesting RTS completely indie and for free, and drew a following out of hard work, whereas the next big thing in that genre seems to be Stormgate and still be still a way out.

Vilem Otte said:
Being in the industry doesn't mean you're recognized

You can say that again lol! No, I know my chances of success are limited, but that's just the way it is no matter what competitive field you are in. You have to take chances or nothing gets done.

I should add, I also feel deeply that one has to be optimistic when facing a challenge like this. I could sit here and think of a million reasons why this will never happen and most of them could drive me into anxiety enough that I never lift a finger to try. I am just not that type of person though. We are an innovative and clever species, often it is simply determination and hard work that gets us where we want to go.