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Flaw in the wobble method

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5 comments, last by Aressera 7 years, 1 month ago

Firstly this is about techniques in detecting exoplanets

I trust the transit method

But I distrust the wobble method for reasons stated below. And i've searched time and again, to see if any astronomer using the wobble method would explain the loop hole but time and again they don't. Only stating "hey we used the wobble method to discover an exoplanet 'x'"

Wobble's method flaw::The wobble of a star is taken to be the resultant of a single planet. But it mostly wouldn't be. The wobble of a star should be the net impact forces of many planets acting on the star. Planets in sync would create a magnified wobble on their star whereas planets out of sync would cancel out each other wobble impact. But scientists using this method do not even consider multi-planetary systems as they have all extrapolated from the wobble, the size, mass and composition for a single exoplanet.

So all wobble method discovers is a single exoplanet! That should say something. Whereas transit methods so often discovers multiple exoplanetary systems

Consider our solar system for instance. If an observer from a distant exoplanet observes the wobble of our sun wouldn't they be wrong if they extrapolate a single planet from the Sun's wobble? As the scientist in this video did for a distant star? Wouldn't the sun's net wobble be the result of 8 planetary forces on it?

I know the frequency/cycle/amplitude of a planetary motion impacts its star uniquely, but it is its net wobble that is observed and it should be wrong to extrapolate that to a single planet

Last time i had a similar puzzle on astronomical observations the smart people in this forum gave good satisfying concepts that solved the puzzle . This might be a tough nut to crack though

can't help being grumpy...

Just need to let some steam out, so my head doesn't explode...

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Hmm, yeah, gamedevs might not be the ideal audience for explaining astronomy science questions :P

I tend to agree with your flaw description, it sounds logical at least.

However, when they make an announcement, do they exclude the possibility of having more planets than one? Ie, isn't the wobble method not just a crude way of finding a planet, whereas the transit method (no idea what that is), is a more precise method?

I mean, you do need at least one planet to get a wobble, right?

As for more planets, given the results of the transit method, it is fair to assume the 'wobble' stars also have multiple planets, like you believe too.

Could the wobble method confuse several planets with one?

Theoretically, it can, you can even eliminate the wobble, by having two similar planets rotate with the same speed, each planet counteracting the pulling force of the other planet. That is a false negative though, and not a false positive.

I think a false positive could be created by having two or more planets pulling on the star in the same rhythm, which mostly means (I think) same cycle length of a 'year' for each of the planets. If not, the planets will make the star oscillate at different frequencies, and in theory you could notice that, but no idea how good the detection methods are, it's easy to loose such information in the noise. I think it's fair to assume that having several planets with equal 'year' length around a single star isn't very likely.

Another item is mass of the planet. Bigger planets pull harder, sort of obliterating movements from all the lighter planets.

So my guess is, a wobble implies having at least one planet, where they make an educated guess on weight and year length of the biggest planet. When you go there, you may (perhaps /will/, if you look at the transit method results) find more planets, and theoretically, you could find some sort of duo-planet but size wouldn't be far off, since mass runs in N^3 to size, so half the mass is still mostly equally big.

If duo-planets exist much, you would find them with the transit method too, wouldn't it? Any idea on how often that happens?

Edit:

Pondering about it more, I think duo-planets don't exist. Assume you have a duo-planet, where the second planet runs behind the first one by 1/4 of the cycle. These things are the biggest planets there (or the wobble method wouldn't find them), so they must pull on each other too. That means in a few million years, they crash into each other, as there is no counter-force to prevent that. Given the age of things flying in the universe, such things would have happen a few eons ago.

A quick google search reveals that there are solar systems with multiple exoplanets detected with the radial velocity method - here is one with five!

Anyway, not all planet-induced wobbles are created equal - a wobble's magnitude depends on the planet's mass and distance. The wobble Earth induces is miniscule, while the wobble Jupiter induces is so powerful that the barycenter of Jupiter and the Sun actually lies just above the Sun's "surface". I would expect planet hunters in other solar systems to spot Jupiter's wobble easily, as its wobble signal would dominate everything else. The wobbles induced by the other planets would be there, of course, but you would need a much better detector and further analysis to notice them.

But I distrust the wobble method for reasons stated below.

That's fine. Right now they're just sighting and estimating for stars that are so distant we will not be able to do anything about it within your lifetime.

Right now the farthest probe away from Earth -- which was bounced off several planets to reach a higher speed -- has taken 30 years to reach the edge of the solar system. Scientists have figured out how to make even faster probes, right now they could make that same journey in about 20 years instead of 30.

At that same rate, it would "only" take around 17,000 years to reach the nearest one for the 4.2 light year trip.

So barring some discovery that allows traveling a much higher travel rate, say around 0.1c, the claims about exoplanets are nothing more than exciting hype, much like people 5000 years ago looking at the seas of the moon and giving them creative names. Maybe someday someone will figure out a way to reach them, but for now and the foreseeable future they're just talking points.

Hmm, yeah, gamedevs might not be the ideal audience for explaining astronomy science questions

Though I'm naturally fascinated by cosmological events and astronomical observations , completely independent of my interest in games, nonetheless given that many game themes and fantasies take stories from alien planets and alien characters I was kind of really surprised initially that not many here are fascinated by the reality discoveries and specualtions of other worlds and what "exo-humans" might exist there. Though since, my surprised on this had died long long ago

However, when they make an announcement, do they exclude the possibility of having more planets than one? Ie, isn't the wobble method not just a crude way of finding a planet, whereas the transit method (no idea what that is), is a more precise method?

I mean, you do need at least one planet to get a wobble, right?

As for more planets, given the results of the transit method, it is fair to assume the 'wobble' stars also have multiple planets, like you believe too.

.....

So my guess is, a wobble implies having at least one planet, where they make an educated guess on weight and year length of the biggest planet. When you go there, you may (perhaps /will/, if you look at the transit method results) find more planets, and theoretically, you could find some sort of duo-planet but size wouldn't be far off, since mass runs in N^3 to size, so half the mass is still mostly equally big.

My bad, I should have included a link to the transit method in the original post. Here it is, the second paragraph down
Basically transit method is just using the regular dimming of the light of a star as an indication of a planet transiting the star
I think you made a good point - a wobbling star could trigger further investigations where other transiting exoplanets (which would be on completely different orbiting planes) on the star could be discovered

A quick google search reveals that there are solar systems with multiple exoplanets detected with the radial velocity method - here is one with five!

Anyway, not all planet-induced wobbles are created equal - a wobble's magnitude depends on the planet's mass and distance. The wobble Earth induces is miniscule, while the wobble Jupiter induces is so powerful that the barycenter of Jupiter and the Sun actually lies just above the Sun's "surface". I would expect planet hunters in other solar systems to spot Jupiter's wobble easily, as its wobble signal would dominate everything else. The wobbles induced by the other planets would be there, of course, but you would need a much better detector and further analysis to notice them.

In your link its a combination of transiting and non-transiting, just to quote a bit. Having said that, I agree that if very sensitive instruments are used multiple exoplanets could be discovered via radial velocity.

So my original post should have been framed as a question rather than a statement of distrust

The 55 Cancri system was the first known to have four, and later five planets, and may possibly have more. The innermost planet, e, transits 55 Cancri A as viewed from Earth.[23] The next planet, b, is non-transiting but there is tentative evidence that it is surrounded by an extended atmosphere that does transit the star.[19]

So barring some discovery that allows traveling a much higher travel rate, say around 0.1c, the claims about exoplanets are nothing more than exciting hype, much like people 5000 years ago looking at the seas of the moon and giving them creative names. Maybe someday someone will figure out a way to reach them, but for now and the foreseeable future they're just talking points.

Hmm... Good point, the same is true for many cosmological/astronomical studies. They are just pricking on curiosities

I thus wonder why/how a lot research scientists have (and stake) their careers on finding exoplanets and other cosmological events which yield no financial returns. (Apart from NASA, US government funded) How do these private researchers get the fundings? Those telescopes, super computers and other instruments in the video I posted in the first post are worth millions, plus their full time in observations. How do they convince their investors to pump in more money?

Whatever their magic is, they should keep it up for people like me who remain fascinated in cosmological events and exoplanets

can't help being grumpy...

Just need to let some steam out, so my head doesn't explode...

There is still merit in the study even if we won't travel there in ten generations, or even thousands.

People studied and experimented with flight for over a thousand years before we could fly, with documented studies to figure out flight from several hundred years BC.

What we learn has value even if we can't use it the same day.

I think astronomers use frequency-domain analysis techniques to find periodic signals in the doppler shifting of the star, this would allow the detection of multiple planets if a wobble was detected at different orbital periods. They can isolate the signal for each planet and use that data to determine various properties of the planet(s). The main limitation of the wobble method is that it's harder to find small planets within the noise, while big planets show a stronger signal.

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