1) Talent trees: This is from classic WoW (which I'm sure borrowed it from other games). You have starting talents which are also prerequisites for later talents which are prerequisites for talents deeper into the tree and so on. There are many different paths to take in the tree for uniqueness.

What do these talents actually do, though?

1) Talent trees: This is from classic WoW (which I'm sure borrowed it from other games). You have starting talents which are also prerequisites for later talents which are prerequisites for talents deeper into the tree and so on. There are many different paths to take in the tree for uniqueness.

What do these talents actually do, though?

Some of the talents are minor. ex) Increase damage of "x" ability by 10%. Increase block chance by x%. Ability "x" costs 5% less. They get much more creative than that. As you go deeper into the talent tree, you typically get access to more powerful talents, and some talents simply give brand new abilities. Here's a link to a talent calculator from an older version of WoW which still had talent trees:

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent

Choose the class whose talent tree you want to see. You may not know what the abilities are, but you can get a feel for what kinds of changes the talent tree allows you to make. The main problem with the talent tree and why it was subsequently phased out was because there always seemed to be "cookie cutter" builds. People would figure out what the best choice of talents were and there was little reason to choose otherwise, thus the spirit of customization behind the talent tree was nullified.

Throughout all types of talent systems, the prevention of "cookie cutter" builds is an ongoing challenge

Okay, I guess that changes my question to: why are we talking specifically about 'talent' systems, and not the traits or passive abilities that have existed in many other games? It seems like an extra skill tree layered on top of the existing skill system, but it's not clear to me where the dividing line is or what value is added by having 2 systems.

I see that "talent" was kind of a poor choice. I chose that term because it's the only thing I had experience with (I haven't played that many games but I have played WoW). But the main topic for the discussion is customization.

Let's say there's 2 rpgs.

The first one gives you 10 skills as you level up, all of which you can use. There is no customization.

The second gives the same 10 skills, but you can only choose 5. That allows for 252 possible unordered combinations. Lots of customization (granted at the cost of less total skills with access to).

Customization in general to me is giving the player choices on how they affect their skills/stats, and what kind of skills they can have. In a sense, it makes a player feel more unique and more like they're tailoring their character to a specific style. I'm looking to see what different systems of customization games have offered.

Okay, I guess that changes my question to: why are we talking specifically about 'talent' systems, and not the traits or passive abilities that have existed in many other games? It seems like an extra skill tree layered on top of the existing skill system, but it's not clear to me where the dividing line is or what value is added by having 2 systems.

A passive ability "mostly" interacts with other abilities, like:

Ability X makes you jump to a target at maximum range of 10m.

Passive Ability Y says: Increases the maximum range of Ability X to 15 m.

A skill system or skill tree is like an in depth modification of your character stats, like:

- Increase your HP by 10.

- Increase Lifeleech by 10 per Hit.

- you deal 5% more damage while dual whielding.

There are a lot more examples here.

I think there are basically a few parameters of variation that define a typology of talent systems.

1. Can the player choose which talent they're getting or is it assigned? (For example, in FFV you don't get a choice. You can change *classes*, but within a class you don't choose talents.)
2. When you choose one talent rather than another, is that other talent available to you later or is it gone forever? (For example, in the XCOM reboot, your sniper can get access to Opportunist or Executioner, but not both; if you choose Opportunist you can't also get Executioner at a later level. On the other hand, Fallout 3 also has a system where you gain access to about two "perks" on level up and get to choose one, but you can always go back and choose a perk you missed instead.)
3. Do talents have different costs (sometimes in money, but often in terms of something like "ability points") such that you're spending them on learning a talent, and can save up your ability points to buy more "expensive" talents? (Too many games do this to name them.)
4. Do talents have prerequisite talents? (The most strict version of this is the "talent tree".)
5. Do you earn the experience points first and then choose your talent, or do you choose the talent and then earn the experience for it? (For example, in FF9 you choose a talent and then work towards it. If you change your mind midway, the points don't transfer. Betrayal at Krondor does something similar, in that you have to choose what skills you're leveling up before you get into the situations that can provide experience towards them. This also applies to "technologies" in strategy games like Civ, which are talents under another name. You decide what to research and then earn "research points" towards it.)
6. Is there a quota of talents you can have, such that you can learn more talents than you can actually equip at any point? Or are they all available so long as you've learned them?

the main topic for the discussion is customization. Let's say there's 2 rpgs. The first one gives you 10 skills as you level up, all of which you can use. There is no customization. The second gives the same 10 skills, but you can only choose 5. That allows for 252 possible unordered combinations. Lots of customization (granted at the cost of less total skills with access to).

Okay, in that case then I think 'skill' and 'talent' are essentially interchangeable, and many RPGs give you choices when it comes to which skills you want, rather than just giving them out per-level. Skyrim is probably the biggest one of recent times, where you get basically full choice over which skills you want, although they are organised into sub-trees.

I think Valrus covered most of the interesting points, but missed an obvious one, where an initial choice of character class locks you into a subset of skills. (It's related to point 1.) Perhaps most RPGs are like this, from the Diablo games, to any Dungeons and Dragons style game like Baldur's Gate, to the Might and Magic series, or recent games like Legend of Grimrock.

Thanks for all the input guys. It's rather hard to find in depth explanations of how different games skill systems work (outside of actually playing the game). So all of your information was very useful. Here are two articles I found (that are slightly dated) that talk all about two core customization systems and how different games have employed them.

The first talks all about the talent tree system:

https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/lets-spec-into-talent-trees-a-primer-for-game-designers--gamedev-6691

The second talks about "equiped skills" system, which is basically choosing a certain amount of skills from a skill pool.

http://anomalousunderdog.blogspot.com/2013/08/i-told-you-people.html

I found them to be good reads for getting your feet wet into thinking about skill customization.

Talent is talent, skill is skill, ability is ability not confuse.

Talent: an innate property of character.

If you want create a game with beautifull individual system, you must learn about each point of them.

Just example, how this system i see.

alent we can add when cahracter is creating: Like a ---
1. Sweaming ->

in L2: decrease penalty for speed in water against 50%. Or remove it all.

in Wow: increase speed move in water for 20~50%.

in Raganrok Online: nothing not doo ;D. Or, character can sweam throught water.

2. Stranger ->

in L2: increase speed when you travel on mounts for 20%.

in WOW: decrease price for riding on wyverns by 50%.

in Ragnarok Online: nothink not do. ;D

3. Truly Trader ->

in L2/WOW: decrease the price of all buyed items for 5-10%. Increase the price of selling items for 5-10%.

in Ragnarok Online: we have a skill about it, than we must find a new way for this alent on next use in game.

etc...

Skills is a special abilities froma a one game class or some trainer (maser).

1. Power Strike: learned by teacher of your class. Deal damage.

2. Power strike: learned by teacher in a world.

In a game without classes, we have trainers, and players, those can learn any skills from another classes, but learnable skill must have a past learned skill from trainer skill tree, I mean:

If we want learn shield strike from tank trainer, we must learn shield mastery at first. and etc... this system was be great for MMORPG OPEN WORLD.

3. Power Strike: learned by your self in special window (in game, like CBB in L2) and you spend some points/money or etc resources.

Abilies is passive. It's a like skills but not a skills ;D. Ability can be learned up to another level or something else, when skill can't. Skill Most deal some damage and must depend from player sats for future build formation. Abilities is static "skill" with passive proc.

1. Shield Mastery: increase shld block rate for a [5 + skilllevel]%

2. Sword Mastery: increase some of you kinds (game kinds), it can be like most accuracy hits with sword, like a truly mastery and etc..

3. Inrage: when your HP lower han 30%, you get a rage stance and your attack grow UP for a 50% but defence abilities is reduced by 30%. It's proc by event, but with minuses.

Than, in talent list what character can do from birth, we can add Rager Trust, those not add penalty when rage is used and etc.

This - how i see the talent system, in conjunction with the skill/ability system. And if in game we can upgrade us main stats like STR,DEX,INT and etc, it will be true individuality character/player system.