Sorry if the tone was "confrontational." Ok.

As for mr. anonymous, you didnt understand my point. I wasnt DEFENDING these Hero Warriors, i was merely stating the fact that they are out there and you need to deal with them. So i could care less about your arguement that they suck...i dont disagree with you.

Anyways, Spitting trash can, aside from my tone I still dont see the point of happy/sad as it pertains to forcing roleplaying.

So there you have it, no harsh tone, and at least im not anonymous.

Edited by - GalaxyQuest on November 20, 2001 8:04:44 PM

I think I understand what GQ is saying. He wasnt saying that you were trying to shove the idea down anyones craw. What he means is that, players wont care how happy there chars are if they themselves are bored to death. The game must be geared around the players. So that the players personality comes out in the way they play the game. The character should be the reflection of person sitting at the keyboard.

I must also agree that the Diablo RPGers are out there. Not only out there but I dare say that at present they are the majority. For them Diabloesque games are 100% pure, and unadulterated Role-Playing. Thats why many game designers cater to their whims. Until they get bored of hack-n-slash it will still be a very viable design. (I have to admit once in a while when I''m really bummed out, its nice to go into a thick dungeon crawl and whoop some monster tail.)

With respect to those who question the validity of encouraging roleplay etc:

Yes you will alienate the power gamers who want to be the best at everything. I think that is the whole idea. This sort of game isn't for them, they'd be better off playing diablo.

This sort of game would be more aimed at the hardcore roleplayers. I think you still have to be careful - it might be an interesting idea to have some sort of server-end control that determines the ratio of kill-reward to roleplay reward. That way, people can pick a server that suits their style of game. That way you can appeal to a much broader demographic (I think marketing issues are important, much as I would like them not to be)

Edited by - Sandman on November 21, 2001 6:01:58 AM

Hmmmm... all of these are interesting ideas, but they seem to all point to the same thing -> actually being in the character as much as possible. Now thats a great idea, once you get past the innumerable amount of variables you will need for each thing that could affect the player, and if your game has a plot, you''d have to come up with infinite endings just to cmpensate for the fact that everything the player could do during the game the could affect the outcome.

just a little something to chew on

I think were all on the same side of the fence here and dont realize it. We all agree that the role playing is vital, were just disagreeing as to what kind of RP the general public wants. Or perhaps not. Im not downplaying RP in the slightest. FF series and esspecialy Chrono Trigger had more RP in it then some MMORPGs today and I loved being immersed like that. RP is extremely important but all Im saying is that for the general public pure RP wont be all that enticing. Now if youre making a RPG for true hardcore RPGers and not worried about having the hottest thing on the market then pure RP is the way to go. If you want a marketable game you need to consider the wants of the majority.

Can anyone think of a way to have a chat system in a MMORPG that doesn''t interfere with the roleplaying?
What I mean is, when you play one of those games there are always people chatting about school or some chick they know, which is all fine I suppose; but what about when they say to someone else, "I''m over at [whatever place in the world]. Come over and we can kill this guy."? Obviously, these two could not communicate like this (at least, not without telepathic powers), and I feel it takes something out of the game if you can jump "out of character" to tell someone else (or everyone) something that your character should not be able to communicate.
Does this make sense? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Techno understands me!!

As for communication (ala chat windows in MMRPGs) I think this is *ONE* part of why roleplaying cant take more of a role in rpg style games. My idea was to have an outside global chat system for global chatting. Then during actual game play use some kind of PIGEONS with messages attached would be needed for long distance chatting. Of course a 3d model wouldnt need to be implemented, just the abstract idea of the bird having to fly somewhere to talk to a person. Of course, you can also chat normally if the players are within the area to hear you.

My idea, helps to reduce all that pointless chatter thereby improving the roleplaying atmosphere. And yet, players can still talk to people they know by sending quite "pigeons" around. Anyways, this is just *1* idea to direct players towards roleplaying. See, this doesnt force the power plays not to play the style they want, yet still improves the game atmosphere or trys to(in theory). Like I said, power players can be looked at as Hero Warriors, you just got to find ways to let them role play that type of character!!

Traditionaly "role playing" is about "putting yourself in anothers shoes"..."viewing situations and the world in general, from anothers point of view, with the full wieght of thier limitations, pressures, and advantages"...In real life "role playing" there are no heros or villians...it''s all about understanding each other through interpreting why we think/act like we do.

Not even the pen-&-paper RPGs do this very well...RPG video games are even worse...

I think that in order to "push" RPG gamers to "role play" more (in the tradition of P&P RPGs)...a RPG video game is going to have to place a WHOLE lot less wieght on combat, magic, and other RPG cliches...Those things are so widely used that players expect to play the game a certain way because they have done so in all the other RPGs they have played.

If so many players in a MMORPG are spending most of thier time disscussing what happened at school that day...then that should at least tell you that a RPG that takes place in a college/high school may be of intrest to them...sure a collage RPG may have limited appeal (but face it, so do midevil fantasy RPGs) even among all those "out-of-character" players...but it may be just the game they are looking for (yet, nobody is makeing it...why?)

quote: Original post by MSW
...then that should at least tell you that a RPG that takes place in a college/high school may be of intrest to them...sure a collage RPG may have limited appeal (but face it, so do midevil fantasy RPGs) even among all those "out-of-character" players...but it may be just the game they are looking for (yet, nobody is makeing it...why?)

because getting drunk and having sex is only fun in real life; role playing it is just silly!

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Although the idea of Pigeons are cool, I''d be worried that the sky would actually be black with the things considering the number of messages flying around -- or that people would be upset by not getting their messages in a timely-enough manner. Though it could be more immersive, make sure that it doesn''t cause people to be irritated by the concept. (it sounds kind of like the Guardian spells in FF8 -- they were cool at first, but after the first few times, I was longing for the old days of text messages saying I hit the enemy)

I personally have always hated the concept of a "character charisma stat"... I do, however, like the "reputation" concept, and appearance is a must. The reaction to people should be based on a few things (in my opinion):

- Initial appearance. This will generally be used to determine if someone will talk to a character to begin with. Obviously, this will be based on the character race (an insect-looking creature may be ugly to humans but gorgeous to characters of the same race), and on certain advantages/disadvantages (appearance means nothing to blind people), and on culture (some cultures may LOVE a five-hundred pound woman with a moustache an a peg leg)
- Reputation. I like local and global reputations. How people react to you is ultimately based on your actions.
- Advantages/Disadvantages. A character who has a bad habit of picking his nose or scratching his butt in public will definitely hurt his reputation. These can also include certain stigmas (such as you were raised rich, so you''re spoiled, but the rest of the game, you spend your time trying to overcome it). In this case, these things act as a pseudo-charisma, but you aren''t being controlled by a player-set number.

Anyway, long story short the charisma stat should exist, then you apply modifiers based on who you''re communicating with, but it should be a sliding number, based on player behavior. If you want to play an evil person for role-playing purposes, start kicking puppies. "Bad" people will talk to you more (you''ll be a hit on the black market), but most people will steer clear.

As for the concept of levelling -- I don''t know how I feel about it. For completing a quest, I think you should receive a reward, maybe character points that can immediately be spent. Or maybe you should get your training as in "real life" -- your skills improve as you use them, and you can go get training... quests would be a great way to improve your reputation (charisma) and obviously your wealth.


---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com