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An Elite-like multiplayer game

Started by November 11, 2001 02:28 PM
61 comments, last by erdbernd 23 years, 1 month ago
Airhead Zoom

I don't see the issue with C++. I've used MSVC++ and g++ together for a while now, and I've never come across a portability issue I couldn't solve in a few minutes.

With C, you loose all the benefits of C++, namely its OOP. The slight loss of portability with using C++ (which is not insolvable) is, IMO, outweighed by the benefits of C++ (which are considerable).

Most portability issues are problems with Cfront-based compilers: which g++, MSVC and Codewarrior are not. g++ is freely available on almost every platform, and g++ and MSVC are competent implementations of the standard (I don't know about Codewarrior).

I can't find any conformance comparisons of C++ compilers anywhere!

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One very important thing to remember is: you could make it a web game if you're using Java.

web game. *shudder*

Everyone, re. JumpGate

Firstly, the fact that somebody else thought of making a multiplayer Elite-like game shouldn't come as a surprise to you. Several people on this thread have revealed that they're working on such a thing.

Secondly, the fact that they've finished their game shouldn't put anyone off making their own: Jumpgate isn't my game, and it isn't erdbend's game.

All we have to do is come up with a design that is different from, and superior to, Jumpgate's. So don't sweat it.

The official Jumpgate site is here. Maybe I'm biased, but there's a lot of buzzwords there.

It would appear that they have only 15 stations. Whether they mean 15 kinds of station, or 15 actual stations, I'm unsure. I assume we're planning to have hundreds of actual stations, and perhaps players could design their own, subject to some kind of screening process. Certainly, players should be able to decorate stations they control, fit upgrades, etc.

By the looks of thing, it's multiplayer only. Personally, I never failed to be irritated by games with no single-player mode. Naturally, you shouldn't be able to raise stats in single-player (or, if you can, those stats shouldn't hold in multi-player mode), but it's handy for practice and, if there's a decent plot, could hold as a real single-player game.

It seems that you only get multiplayer-only games when you have to pay to connect to the server, a concept which I find generally offensive. It occurs to me that an interesting way of generating funds could be in-game advertising (you might buy a BMW Planetary Drive, for example ).

All your bases belong to us (I know. It's irony.)

Edit: Fixed broken end tag evilness.

Edited by - Mayrel on November 20, 2001 12:29:49 PM
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quote: Original post by Airhead Zoom
Krez - Good point! I think this Internet idea could really work. Just have some bulletin boards on which the players can post jobs and a chat-system to bargain about the deal.

A possible problem with this is that there''s no challenge involved in finding the juicy missions. In reality, I would think that''d be unlikely that the board for a station would be available anywhere in the universe.

In much the same way as I can''t go on TV and tell everyone that I''ve lost my watch and has anyone seen it, you shouldn''t be able to broadcast just anything to the universe.

Chances are that it''d cost you a lot of money to post something to a universal board, and most people would need to post to a local board. If local boards are used, we might have spam problems if you can post to every board in the game from anywhere, so we''d want to restrict who can post to a local board based upon location.

There may also be bandwidth issues. With millions of planets, and potentionally trillions of board messages on each planet, you''d need amazing bandwidth to transfer all that around and still have enough left for live videophone (or holophone, even) communications between millions of people. In reality, we would expect to see DOS attacks that force entire planets off the Galactinet (for want of a better name). Perhaps, of course, that could be a feature of the game.
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Jonpolly - Good that you noticed, but if the game has user-defined (and some pre-created) maps, the universe can be big on servers with many players and small on servers with only a few players. IMHO this is a must anyway since most popular games have more than one map to play on.

On the whole, I believe that Elite''s systems were randomly generated. Systems near Earth, and systems of particular interest were explicitly created, but most of them were made up at runtime (although they were always the same, of course).

I figure that most of the systems on the map don''t need to be pre-created: there are various programs around that can simulate accretion of planetary systems, so its a snip to read up on the topic and rustle up some systems at random.
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I don''t agree on using the old Elite''s graphics style. ...most modern gamers expect at high quality graphics...emulate the Elite graphics by setting a low detail mode of the models...

There are a few features of Elite''s grahpics that haven''t been matched by any other games I''ve played, like the atmosphere (with day/light effects and a primitive simulation of Raleigh scattering) and the ringed planets that I''m crazy about.

I don''t see any particular need to limit ourselves in terms of graphics. A good idea might be to provide a couple (or more) different ''renderers'' so people with a less powerful computer could use a low-power renderer designed to look good with less detail (low-detail mode on FreeSpace, for example, manages to look worse than Frontier on my computer).

A feature of Elite that I particularly liked was that a ship got replaced by a blob when it was too far away to see. That''s a nice feature that I think a real spaceship would have.

quote: Original post by jonpolly99
Space stations, both planet bound and in orbit had a wide range of features in the original game

Planetbound is an important point, I think. With our nice new flashy graphics for spacestations and ships, we''d be instantly let down if we had featureless spheres for planets. We need somebody who knows about ROAM and fBM in order to make a decent-enough planet.
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- 1) You can buy/sell ships and ship parts, including engines, weapons, detection equipment, shields, crew cabins etc.

Some generic categories...
Generator. A source of power. Might be a reactor, a battery, a transducer (of light or gravity), or something more exotic.
Drive. Something that moves you. Might be reaction-based (like a jet engine), or reaction-less (like a hypothetic ''warp'' drive).
Capacitor. Something that stores power from the generator. Allows us to legitimately limit the use of powerful weapons.
Weapons. Something that kills people. Might be a projectile, beam, missile, some kind of field, or something more exotic.
Shields. Something that protects you. Might be kinetic (protects against projectiles), reflective (protects against lasers), gravitational (protects against almost anything) or active (protects against almost anything and can adapt to the situation).
Cabins. Something that contains people. Might be for crew members, passengers, prisoners or slaves. You might also have a sick bay, galley or lounge. If you have a passenger ship, you might also have a cinema, casino, basebal court, etc.
Computer. Something that controls your ship. You need a computer to run computer programs: which may include the autonav or autofighter. More powerful programs require a more powerful computer.
Storage Unit. Something contains something. You might have different units for storing solids, liquids and gases. Certain commodities might have special environmental requirements. To store those you would need a more expensive storage unit.
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2) You can post messages. Players should be able to post messages to each other, transfer money for services, refuse to pay for jobs not well done etc. etc.- this is quite a hard bit, each station will need its own message board, the message should indicate if the player is in the station or not (more likely not), the message should have a life span (set by the player?), there should be some payment transfer method or equipment transfer method- and the players need to be able to talk to each other directly.

An idea I had for my game was that each ''empire'' could have a different currency. If you go into enemy territory, then it''s unlikely that you could use a certain currency.

I also though about allowing the player to open accounts with different banks. Some banks might be the equivalent of the now legendary Swiss banks: if police seize your assets for some illegal activity, your Swiss account might be safe.
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Also, another problem - if you make your universe too big and people it with NPCs, then how likely is it that more than 2 players will ever be in the same place at the same time!

We can expect most player interaction to take place around planets. To limit the planets that players can visit, we might want to invent a catastrophy that occured just before the game begins, which limited the planets you could go to.

The jumpgate network might have been sent offline in the time of the last Collision, say, and we''re waiting for activiation messages (which had to be sent at lightspeed because the jumpgate network is the backbone of ftl travel) to reach each gate.

That allows us to select a few systems that are available at the beginning of the game, and gradually open up other systems as the game progresses (and, hopefully, more players join).

All your bases belong to us (I know. It''s irony.)
CoV
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A multiplayer Elite game....omg this is a new idea! NOT!

EVE, JUMPGATE, DARKSPACE, ETC, ETC ETC.

GalaxyQuest:

Ok, this isn''t exactly a new information, if you read through earlier posts. Could you provide URL''s, please?

Before we start implementing this, it could be smart to learn from mistakes in the other designs (if any). BTW: could you add your personal rating of them, too? The more precise, the better.

Also, any further suggestions are welcome.
quote: Original post by Mayrel
In much the same way as I can''t go on TV and tell everyone that I''ve lost my watch and has anyone seen it, you shouldn''t be able to broadcast just anything to the universe.

you are in the UK. i am in the USA. you typed something and i just read it, and soon enough you will read this. all for free, and all at a speed faster than we can imagine.
now, scale that up to a time in the future when we have "warp drives" and intergalatic travel.
just as i can read a post about a rock concert in germany that is taking place tonight, someone on planet X could read about a mission between another planet (also named X? i doubt it) in a galaxy far far away. the only difference is that this man of the future could possibly strap himself in and fly there through a wormhole, whereas i couldn''t make the concert even if i had my own personal SR-71.
hmm... what about language barriers? should everyone be forced to learn esperanto before they can use this universal internet thing? because for the love of god, i don''t want to download a klingon font any more than i want that damn chinese language support all these web pages keep trying to force on me.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)
--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])
OK. How about this for an idea- its original, and I dont think its been done in any way yet. Start of with just the Solar system to fly around in- now before any of you shout ''Boooring!'' here are a few points. 1.The solar system is pretty big, with plenty of scope for wierd and interesting environments of every kind, including past civilisations, alien invasions from outside Sol etc. And all you have to do to configure Sol using the info you can get freely from NASA and most astromomy books 2. You can still have miners, soldiers, traders and so on- Io has rare metals, Titan has hydrocarbons, and so on. It also allows you to go into lots of detail for each planet or body, spend more time making the rings of Saturn look just right, and generally make the game look pretty amazing if you want it to 3.You can add interstellar jump technology later when any bugs have been ironed out, adding a system at a time to coincide with the ''building'' of the jumpgates 4. It keeps the players inside a clearly defined managable area.
I also support the idea of people being able to build space stations/ design their own ships, which is I reckon wouldnt be too hard. You could use object orientation to define classes of ship/station parts/bodies, and let people constuct their own. You want to build a massive behemouth Battlecruiser to fight the alien nasties? No problem- as long as you can afford to build it and hire the crew, pcik the biggest frame you can find and wack on the bits you want..
Anyway, waddya think?
Jon
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quote: Original post by jonpolly99
OK. How about this for an idea- its original, and I don''t think its been done in any way yet. Start of with just the Solar system to fly around in- now before any of you shout ''Boooring!''

Booring!

Sorry, couldn''t resist. Even though it isn''t boring.
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1.The solar system is pretty big, with plenty of scope for wierd and interesting environments of every kind, including past civilisations, alien invasions from outside Sol etc. And all you have to do to configure Sol using the info you can get freely from NASA and most astromomy books

The problem is getting big old planets into the game without them looking rubbish. It can be done from a distance, easily, but if you want people to zoom in closer, you need to be using ROAM and such techniques. That isn''t to say it can''t be done, just that it''s quite tricky, which would explain why nobody else has done it (at least, not commercially).

The biggest problem with NASA''s information is that the information isn''t in simple 3D. Information on converting JPL''s ephemerides to 3D is thin on the ground, and I''ve not yet managed to make a converter. It is, of course, possible, but I haven''t figured it out yet.
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2. You can still have miners, soldiers, traders and so on- Io has rare metals, Titan has hydrocarbons, and so on. It also allows you to go into lots of detail for each planet or body, spend more time making the rings of Saturn look just right, and generally make the game look pretty amazing if you want it to

As it happens, most of the superior planets and planetoids contain large amounts of hydrocarbons. Titan is of particular interest because it is theorised that it may be covered in a sea of liquid methane, which would be easy to ''mine''.
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You could use object orientation to define classes of ship/station parts/bodies, and let people constuct their own.

Another idea I''ve touched upon in my Elite game. Taking a leaf out of NASA''s book, the stations and large ships in my game are made up of modules, rather than being a one-size-fits-all affair. Small ships use fixed hulls because they are better able to afford protection against damage from acceleration and attack (and, as it happens, can be drawn quite a bit faster), but the components of large ships and stations are separate things that can be attacked seperately (ala the subsystem mechanism that most space-sims provide).

The nice thing about the module-based ships is that they can gradually increase in size as additional modules are added - there''s no reason, apart from storage considerations, that you could have a space station the size of a small town. In an online game, this could easily become a Gibson-esque ''sprawl'' (if you''ve seen the sprawling Unimatrix One in Voyager, that''s what I''ve got in mind.)

All your bases belong to us (I know. It''s irony.)
CoV
Well, OK ... two points:

1. Although the ''clashing universes'' concept is originally Mayrels'' idea, I''d like to get other opinions on that

2. Part I of the design document is online. Please remember two things: I''m not an experienced designer, and I do not really consider this to be the final version (of part I - parts II and III will come). On this point, I''d like to get your advice. Most of you will have read docs like that or even written them themselves, other than me. Is this enough (for part I)? Do I need to get more specific? Name more names? Enhance my english? Please read and reply:

Link


All your posts keep inspiring me. Keep up the discussion.

Thanks.
nyargnyargnyarg...

OK, I''ll figure out this link thing by time, don''t tell me how to post a link (yes, I read the FAQ)

Link
quote: Original post by erdbernd
1. Although the ''clashing universes'' concept is originally Mayrels'' idea, I''d like to get other opinions on that

As much as I''d like to take credit for the idea, I was inspired by Doctor Who. Off hand, this concept is touched upon by the TV series Sliders, a TNG episode of Star Trek (and if you count ''fluidic space'' as an alternate universe, a few Voyager episodes), at least two of Harry Harrison''s Stainless Steel Rat books and The Fifth Element (this isn''t made clear in the movie, but Luc Besson makes it clear here).

In short, this isn''t my idea.
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2. Part I of the design document is online. Please remember two things: I''m not an experienced designer, and I do not really consider this to be the final version (of part I - parts II and III will come). On this point, I''d like to get your advice. Most of you will have read docs like that or even written them themselves, other than me. Is this enough (for part I)? Do I need to get more specific? Name more names? Enhance my english? Please read and reply:

Badlands? That''s a cliché, if ever there was one. I''d go for the factual ''disputed territories'', or ''no man''s land'', which is still a slight cliché, but not quite so blatant.

The ''races'' are an interesting idea that I don''t think we''ve really discused yet.

One important point might be to consider how races interact with each other. It would easy to say ''warrior races don''t like pacifist races'', but that may be too simplistic. A warrior race that placed great importance on honour might get on with a pacifist race that acted honourably but not another warrior race that they see as acting dishonourably (like the Klingon/Human/Romulan triad). It''s possible that some races will be at war, and so hiring a member of one race will make it difficult for you to hire a member of the other race, or buy goods from a station run by that other race.

Tangentaly related to this are the issues of giving passage to known criminals, transporting and selling stolen goods, killing your passengers and stealing their goods/money, and the like.

Abolish Software Patents! | freepatents | lpf
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