Thanks, its really great that when you are down, short in money and someone pulled a dick move on you that you get a nice reply like this with words written in capital letters to emphasize your opinion.

unfortunately you are wrong, I didn't ask them to talk to their lawyer and have extra costs, the so called CEO (which by the way is about my age and not very experienced, its just a 4 people company) said that if anything about the contract is unclear I should not hesitate to ask questions, one was simple about my study fund which he didn't really understand how it works so he had to ask, and it was a specific question that he had about his contract which I couldn't possibly find out on my own, the other was about a really unclear clauses he had which was there and he even couldn't tell me what it meant.

I believe if he gives people a contract he should understand what it means, anyway talking to his lawyer didn't cost him anything and what I did was a common thing to do, at least here in Israel.

And its true, at first I didn't really want it but the lead programmer convinced me and told me (before I agreed to join) that if they have other candidates they would let me know.

again, I'm not saying they did something illegal but it was not a friendly thing to do and considering the size of the gaming industry here, it something you should really try to avoid.

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I wasn't willing to move since the job is 3 minutes walk from my house and in fact I am more than willing to relocate to a different country.

I do appreciate all the help you guys give here, but I think that when someone is writing about something like that and when he's obviously pissed at loosing the job etc. you can try to be more sensitive and don't dis him like that.

After all this is a friendly forum.

Thanks again.

Amit

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I wasn't willing to move

I get the idea that you didn't want the job because of all the different things you wrote. They seem pretty clear to me. You wrote about it:

I got a job offer for a small start up making a game in the "Clash of Clans" genre, the company seems nice, its not my type of games

the game is implemented in Unity and Python, which are two technologies I'm not so crazy about.

should I take this job even though I have some concerns?

After a few days I decided to decline the offer, the guys at the company said that they appreciate my honesty and they understand my concerns

my ideal position would be as an engine programmer on the rendering pipeline

I want to move to working on AAA pc\console titles and not get stuck on mobile F2P games forever.

It sounds like you've already decided.

I certainly have not

All those statements combined, including the fact that YOU TURNED DOWN THE JOB once already, that tells me pretty clearly that you didn't strongly want the job.

You turned it down, they talked you back into it, they sent you a contract, and then...

Eventually after they really talked me into taking the position I decided to go with it, we negotiated the terms and they sent me the contract.
I read the contract and replied and asked some questions about a few clauses for which the CEO did not have an answer and told me he would get back to me after the holiday we had with answers from his lawyer, so I waited and after the holiday I asked him whats going on and he replied on one of the clauses and said he's still waiting for an answer from his lawyer about the second, I started getting the feeling that something is up and then two days later I got a call from the lead programmer telling me they hired someone else.
I'm not saying they did something illegal but I do consider this a "dick move" as they really talked me into coming there and even told me that I can think it over and if there would be another potential candidate they would let me know, and I already said yes and agreed to their terms.

You didn't actually accept the job at that point. You might have thought you accepted it, but from the wording you've got there they sent you a contract and you chose not to sign it.

You wrote that it is normal for people to question standardized employment contracts in Israel. I strongly doubt that is the case.

In any event, they offered you the job once and you turned it down. They talked to you again and offered you the job a second time, and you said you'd think about it. They offered you an employment contract to sign, and you turned it down a third time, wanting more details than the contract. They came back after the holidays, and the fourth time you didn't sign and return the contract, still hoping for more information.

And now you are surprised that on the fifth time of getting more information, saying it was "a dick move" that they didn't hire you.

They tried to hire you FOUR DIFFERENT TIMES.

There is absolutely zero excuse for you to blame them for not hiring you. They did everything they possibly could to hire you. At any point between the time they sent you the contract and the end of the holidays you could have sent them back a signed contract and you would have had the job.

They gave you the job. All you had to do was sign your name, and they gave you weeks to do it. You did not.

You can try to lie to yourself, try to claim that it was their fault, but it was obviously not. YOU REFUSED THE JOB by not signing the contract. The job was yours and you refused it. That is 100% on you.

Also during the last week when I was waiting for answers regarding the contract I declined 2 companies that called me about jobs.

Not sure why you would have done that when you had not completely secured an employment contract. While you write that you are between jobs, "down and short on money" it seems nonsensical that you would turn down two other companies when you don't have a signed contract. Probably a novice mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. You live and learn.

If you are still interested in those jobs, contact the companies, tell them that the other contract fell through and you are very interested in interviewing if the positions are still open.

And if one of them offers you a job, if you are still "down and short on money", DO NOT TELL THEM NO.

again, I'm not saying they did something illegal but it was not a friendly thing to do and considering the size of the gaming industry here, it something you should really try to avoid.

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I wasn't willing to move since the job is 3 minutes walk from my house and in fact I am more than willing to relocate to a different country.

Amit

Not a single company does friendly things to be honest. They do business.

I'm not even sure where you got the idea that I wasn't willing to move

I get the idea that you didn't want the job because of all the different things you wrote. They seem pretty clear to me. You wrote about it:

I got a job offer for a small start up making a game in the "Clash of Clans" genre, the company seems nice, its not my type of games

the game is implemented in Unity and Python, which are two technologies I'm not so crazy about.

should I take this job even though I have some concerns?

After a few days I decided to decline the offer, the guys at the company said that they appreciate my honesty and they understand my concerns

my ideal position would be as an engine programmer on the rendering pipeline

I want to move to working on AAA pc\console titles and not get stuck on mobile F2P games forever.

It sounds like you've already decided.

I certainly have not

All those statements combined, including the fact that YOU TURNED DOWN THE JOB once already, that tells me pretty clearly that you didn't strongly want the job.

You turned it down, they talked you back into it, they sent you a contract, and then...

Eventually after they really talked me into taking the position I decided to go with it, we negotiated the terms and they sent me the contract.
I read the contract and replied and asked some questions about a few clauses for which the CEO did not have an answer and told me he would get back to me after the holiday we had with answers from his lawyer, so I waited and after the holiday I asked him whats going on and he replied on one of the clauses and said he's still waiting for an answer from his lawyer about the second, I started getting the feeling that something is up and then two days later I got a call from the lead programmer telling me they hired someone else.
I'm not saying they did something illegal but I do consider this a "dick move" as they really talked me into coming there and even told me that I can think it over and if there would be another potential candidate they would let me know, and I already said yes and agreed to their terms.

You didn't actually accept the job at that point. You might have thought you accepted it, but from the wording you've got there they sent you a contract and you chose not to sign it.

You wrote that it is normal for people to question standardized employment contracts in Israel. I strongly doubt that is the case.

In any event, they offered you the job once and you turned it down. They talked to you again and offered you the job a second time, and you said you'd think about it. They offered you an employment contract to sign, and you turned it down a third time, wanting more details than the contract. They came back after the holidays, and the fourth time you didn't sign and return the contract, still hoping for more information.

And now you are surprised that on the fifth time of getting more information, saying it was "a dick move" that they didn't hire you.

They tried to hire you FOUR DIFFERENT TIMES.

There is absolutely zero excuse for you to blame them for not hiring you. They did everything they possibly could to hire you. At any point between the time they sent you the contract and the end of the holidays you could have sent them back a signed contract and you would have had the job.

They gave you the job. All you had to do was sign your name, and they gave you weeks to do it. You did not.

You can try to lie to yourself, try to claim that it was their fault, but it was obviously not. YOU REFUSED THE JOB by not signing the contract. The job was yours and you refused it. That is 100% on you.

Also during the last week when I was waiting for answers regarding the contract I declined 2 companies that called me about jobs.

Not sure why you would have done that when you had not completely secured an employment contract. While you write that you are between jobs, "down and short on money" it seems nonsensical that you would turn down two other companies when you don't have a signed contract. Probably a novice mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. You live and learn.

If you are still interested in those jobs, contact the companies, tell them that the other contract fell through and you are very interested in interviewing if the positions are still open.

And if one of them offers you a job, if you are still "down and short on money", DO NOT TELL THEM NO.

I'M SORRY BUT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A MODERATOR AND YOU WRITE STUFF WITH CAPS ON DOESN'T MAKE THEM TRUE!

I wrote how it happened, how can you even say I refused 5 times?

and yes, this is how things work here, I never had the option to send back a signed contract, this is not how things work, you get the contract and then you meet again to sign it, you can't just mail it back, its not the way people do these things here, trust me, I live here, I work here, already signed 3 contract so I DO KNOW!.

I refused them the first time because there was an other job I was interviewing for that I was more interested in, I was being honest with them, and then they talked me into it and that other job didn't pay through, I guess my mistake was being too honest and trusting they would be as honest as me.

If it was a large company I wouldn't expect them to be, since it was a start up company with 3 guys about my age, I trusted them to treat me the same way.

Clearly this was my mistake, but it doesn't mean they didn't do a shitty thing.

I did contact back the other 2 companies that called and I'm waiting to hear back about interviewing, but its in the graphics field and not games.

To tell you the truth I'm disappointed in the game industry in Israel.

All people here care about is making money fast so the game industry here only includes fast developed mobile games and casino games.

I really wish that could change one day as we certainly have all the talent here.

To me it just seems that people here are more interested in getting money fast than building something big and creative and advancing this industry here.

They needed a programmer. You kept not accepting their job offer. Someone else was available and would accept the offer.

This discussion has drifted from its original useful purpose, and has become more heated than the level of discourse we like here. I'm thinking it can be closed now, but perhaps someone has something else helpful and civil to add.

Businesses exist to make money for the owners. Not to do favors for people. If you look at it from the CEO's perspective it was a pretty shitty thing for you to keep rejecting them after it seems like they were doing everything they can to give you a job. They have schedules to keep that don't revolve around you and made a judgement call to hire somebody else they thought would fit better. The fact you keep trying to blame them you didn't get a job (when it looks like they did everything but forge your signature on the contract) means they were probably right. It's a crappy lesson to learn, but don't give people the run-a-around and then expect them to jump to attention when you finally acknowledge them. That's not just for jobs but for people in general. People don't have time for that.

The language is getting too heated. Closing this thread. The OP got the answers needed.