Hello all,

This is my first time visiting these forums in many many years. I have two general questions about "breaking into" the industry that are specific to my own circumstances. Basically, I'm looking for personal advice. The two general topics are the emotional and the practical. I apologize for the wall of text ahead, and I am grateful to anyone who takes the time to share their insight (I'm looking at you Madsen ).

Emotional

I'm really not sure how to ask this without it being awkward and it sounding like I'm fishing for compliments, so I'll just come right out with it.

The confidence I have in my abilities is usually pretty low. Sometimes I have sparks where I think, "yeah, I can do this", but those moments are few and far between. Especially as I see more and more amazing composers come out of the woodwork, I think "how can I possibly compete with all these guys". This topic doesn't make me feel any better about the situation: http://www.gamedev.net/topic/661545-state-of-the-industry/

I've been composing for over 10 years. This hasn't been full-time (I went to school for structural engineering), but it's what I've spent most of my free time doing. I'm also self-taught. Given all this, I still feel like I am much much worse than anyone else who has been doing it for long as I have, or who has put in the same amount of hours. To be honest, I've never gotten any legitimate compliments - or even significant interest - from any of the many friends I have shared my work with. Granted, most of them aren't musicians and none of them are composers. But wouldn't you hope to see that an average listener would enjoy your stuff, as an indication your music's potential for mainstream appeal?

It was very hard to swallow when a friend of a friend approached me to make some kick starter trailer music for a western rpg, and I just could not do it. Hours and hours of trying, and I could not come up with anything that was even decent for a rough draft. I had always thought I could take most any style/genre, and with some research, make a passable imitation of it for a client. But for this, I had to back out of the project! Not good. That shouldn't happen. Even if I'm able to make okay standalone demos for my portfolio, I find writing something legitimately good for a real world application very intimidating. I listen to classic tracks by Koji Kondo, David Wise, Kenta Negata... I could never write those pieces of music. Admittedly, those are some of the masters of video game composition. But just writing a fitting, decently catchy track that doesn't sound like the compositional equivalent of finger-paints scares me. I don't think I can do it.

Now, I'm not looking for someone to tell me otherwise, because frankly at this point I wouldn't believe someone if they told me that, similar to this phenomenon: http://i.imgur.com/rUvfTYg.jpg I'm really more asking the general question... Have you as a composer ever been through a period of crisis where you think you're not good enough. And what techniques did you use to get yourself out of it? How can one boost their own confidence, from a psychological standpoint (that is, aside from getting "objectively" better at your craft, which I also will ask about in the second part of the post)?

One mentality I've come upon after discussing this with my good friends is the following. Be okay with sucking. Be okay with it being a constant struggle. Your main goal should really just be "to be one of those guys". Want this as your profession, because you love doing it, not to be the best there ever was. This seems to actually be a good mentality. Surprisingly, I found this video to be highly relevant to how to approach the process of learning and becoming better at a creative craft

And they seem to suggest the same idea. And if nothing else, I guess there are plenty of composers who aren't that great compared to the best of us but still make a fine living.

So given all that dribble I just subjected you to, here's probably the more important part of the question. Here is my website: http://vincentrubinetti.com/ And here is a demo reel

In general, I guess what I'm looking for is the most focused and constructive advice that the experienced patrons of this forum can give me that will yield the best chances of just surviving in this industry. Be absolutely, completely honest and straight with me please. Despite my ramblings above, I'm a big boy and I can take it. That said though, I'm more interested in certain comments:

Is my production valuable passable for a commercial project? Is my demo music even appropriate for any type of media (I foolishly have written everything standalone, and have so far failed to practice writing for real productions)? Am I over-selling my abilities on the website? Should I not even mention sound design as a service when I frankly have very little experience with it? Should I even bother having a portfolio of stand alone music before I have any significant project under my belt; that is, will clients completely dismiss me because I have almost no demo-able work from actual shipped products? Do I need more demos of a certain kind? I should practice scoring actual film clips or video footage wayyyy more, shouldn't I? What practice should I do to become a more effective composer? Should I learn more music theory (it takes me 3-4 hours per minute of music if it's really flowing, but most often takes 6-8, or even up to 10 hours, mostly obsessing over the production subtleties)? Should I read more articles and watch more composer interviews?

So far, the only "experience" I've had is doing some very small composition, sound design, and consultation work for small indie developers, most of whom are friends I met on a forum many years ago. I've tried to approach independent projects that I thought were awesome, but was rejected every time. Based on that "state of the industry" post, I'm beginning to see that maybe it wasn't my fault, so maybe I can ease up on myself there. But other than that, I've had no shipped products, except for some ringtones for an old flip phone for an obscure carrier, and some sound effects for a small app. Everything else was cancelled or just conceptual. Outside of this, I haven't done any networking... I simply suck at it, and have no idea how to approach it. But it's something I must get better at if I'm to survive. So more questions related to this:

What forums should I definitely join to wedge myself into the circuit of composers (to possibly start a presence or god forbid make some actual composer friends who I can talk to about this stuff)? What societies are there to join, like ASCAP? What kind of conventions can I go to to meet other composers and developers, or just go to learn? What workshops are helpful? Should I even pursue putting myself in the slurry that is creative freelance websites, where a flood of composers work for nothing? Should I be pursuing contributing to good stock music libraries? Should I attempt to find a mentor, or work with someone in a studio? Should I attempt to join a music production house? Should I try to get an agent?

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If you've read this far, thank you so much. I know some of my questions are general, but the answers I'm looking for aren't general, but rather somewhat specific based on what I've told you about myself and my situation. But massive points to anyone who can give me anything to think about at all!

There are a lot of questions in there so I'll give some general advice.

You said, "The confidence I have in my abilities is usually pretty low", that can be tough in this kind of work. You need thick-skin because at some point someone is going to rip apart something you made and love. You have to be able to be able to look past what you want want and do whatever it takes to make your client happy.

Your demo is way too long. What's in there sounds good, but no one who is looking though 100's of demos trying to find the right composer is going to sit through over 7min. It should be 1-2min max. Best foot forward, less is more, and variety are the keys to a demo.

"Is my production valuable passable for a commercial project? Is my demo music even appropriate for any type of media". For a video game your work is passable for sure. However ,no it's not for any type of media. It's far to midi to get picked up for broadcast or film work and you would be competing again impossibly huge music libraries like APM and FirstComm.

"Should I not even mention sound design as a service when I frankly have very little experience with it?" Don't take a job and then learn how to do it. Learn how to do (and do it well), and then find the work.

Lastly you really have to love this to do it because the amount of work you're going to do versus what your paid isn't worth it financially. If you're really want to do it for a living, get a job at recording studio and learn from a master engineer. Learn everything you can, do it 8 hours a day for work and do it more when you get home, that's what I did. I've been a sound engineer for 10 years and I still learn new stuff and improve my skills every day.

I think I would be okay with a client "tearing apart" a piece of mine. I don't get particularly attached to anything I write. What I worry about is if any client would ever want to have me there in the first place. It's totally appropriate and fine to modify work to suit the client's needs. I know what I'm getting into there.

I'll look into modifying the demo reel to be one for actual clients.

When you say it's not for any type of media, you mean the production values or the composition? Because I would consider video games media as well.

Regarding the sound design, I agree that I should perhaps remove it from the site. However, applying the same thing to composition... I feel like I've hit a limit composing standalone. To progress further, I need to compose for real projects. That is one tier in the learning process. One can't simply go away, study and practice real hard, then show up awesome, ready to work on real projects. Then again, one can't go right into real projects either. For sound design, I haven't reached that tier yet. But for composition, I've done all I can, and am searching for ways to practice. Even if they're small.

As for making the living... I'm not exactly looking for composition to be my only income. As others have said, that's very difficult to do. When I'm asking about how to "succeed" or "survive" in the industry, I'm more asking how can I gain traction and work on some actual projects.

Thanks for your response

Vincent, I'll post later about the "emotional" part. I study psychology. And I've made it from seven years of clinical depression to getting back on track; getting straight As in school; and usually being the most confident, optimistic and hopeful, and cheerful person in a room. So... I should be able to go more in-depth on what really works (or link references). Will probably be a lengthy post, and I just woke up. :P So er... I'll probably post today or tomorrow. If it takes longer, don't worry; I'll definitely post.

Hi Vincent,

Your work is well constructed musically, but orchestrally and identifiably weak. Basically to be blunt, you need to discover what makes your music yours. This is where I was over 10 years ago, and I dove into myself and tried to figure out what would make my music stand out from the crowd. The problem these days is a lot of people have access to good music software, equipment and libraries. So it's easy to make music. The problem is making your music stick out and grab someone who is looking for a composer to give their game identity.

This being said, your music would totally fit in the casual market. Your production values and sonic / stylistic pallette could be honed more for larger commercial projects.

What I ended up doing when I hit this limit with my own skills was to concentate heavily on one genre of music and really pick it apart so I could recreate it in my own style.

Yes, it is hard to find a project, but you could also find game play video and re-score various games with your music as an example. It's a humbling experience to say the least. What games do you like to play? Perhaps pick one to try to score. Start small, try writing a title and background track for an existing iOS game or something.

Also, I'd suggest finding some local indie game developers and try to find a project to get involved on. Like you said, there's nothing like a real project to get the creative juices flowing.

Basically to be blunt, you need to discover what makes your music yours.

I think this is incredibly overrated. Alan Menken composes a whole lot of pastiche, but there is still a level to his compositions and understanding of drama that sets him worlds apart from most contemporary composers. If you look at success stories of composers, it usually comes down to contacts or simply luck. It's easy to think finding your own unique style will help you stand out from the crowd. It sounds plausible. But if you consider tens of thousands of composers all trying to stand out with their own unique style, standing out with your own style isn't very probable.

That said, honing your craft is very important, and your style will evolve naturally with you through your techniques and even the "mistakes" that you do. But I don't believe in finding your own style for the sake of finding your own style; if you do that, you will only limit yourself to this style.

"No style as style. No limitation as limitation."—The core principles of Jeet Kune Do

"When you say it's not for any type of media, you mean the production values or the composition? Because I would consider video games media as well."

Ah miscommunication there, I was saying it's not ok for 'every' type of media. It is suitable for some media, games included. I was talking about broadcast media (TV, Radio, Film). The composition is fine, but the production value isn't. You don't hear a lot of patch instruments outside of games and online media. If you wanted to improve on the production values I would recommend replacing some of the midi with real instruments. Just 1 or 2 real instruments in a track can elevate the whole piece significantly.

"As for making the living... I'm not exactly looking for composition to be my only income. As others have said, that's very difficult to do. When I'm asking about how to "succeed" or "survive" in the industry, I'm more asking how can I gain traction and work on some actual projects."

Doing this type of work as a hobby or side-project could be very difficult. Believe me I know, I'm not about to start turning down commercial work to do this. But even in my position where I'm working with a team and I'm sitting in a recording studio all day long, I find it difficult to keep up at times.

I had always thought I could take most any style/genre, and with some research, make a passable imitation of it for a client.

If a client came to me asking for something I'm not good or experienced in, like hip hop/rap, then I'd refer them to someone who I feel could match their needs. One of the biggest mistakes I see young(er) composers make is try to write/produce every single kind of style/genre out there. Know your limits. Continue to keep learning and stretching yes, but realize and captalize on your strengths.

Basically to be blunt, you need to discover what makes your music yours.

I think this is incredibly overrated. Alan Menken composes a whole lot of pastiche, but there is still a level to his compositions and understanding of drama that sets him worlds apart from most contemporary composers. If you look at success stories of composers, it usually comes down to contacts or simply luck. It's easy to think finding your own unique style will help you stand out from the crowd. It sounds plausible. But if you consider tens of thousands of composers all trying to stand out with their own unique style, standing out with your own style isn't very probable.

Perhaps so, I'm only speaking from personal experience and 11 years of discussions at GDC what audio directors are looking for from composers. As an audio director myself who hires and manages composers when the team sits down to review composer demos we find there is a lot of generic sounding music out there. Then speaking as a freelance composer too, this is where I get majority of my work from, standing out as having a very strong musical identity it has allowed me to work as a composer in the game industry for over 10 years and hired by industry leaders to help brand their launch titles.

Working with indie / casual developers has a lot more flexibility and is more about who you know these days as far as finding and holding down work.

That said, honing your craft is very important, and your style will evolve naturally with you through your techniques and even the "mistakes" that you do. But I don't believe in finding your own style for the sake of finding your own style; if you do that, you will only limit yourself to this style.

That is true, honing your craft is very important and is one of the tools of developing your style. Setting yourself apart by developing your orchestration, mixing and musical idiosyncracies in whatever genre you play with is something you should strive for and this is what I refer to as finding your own style. It's a long explorative process.

I had always thought I could take most any style/genre, and with some research, make a passable imitation of it for a client.

If a client came to me asking for something I'm not good or experienced in, like hip hop/rap, then I'd refer them to someone who I feel could match their needs. One of the biggest mistakes I see young(er) composers make is try to write/produce every single kind of style/genre out there. Know your limits. Continue to keep learning and stretching yes, but realize and captalize on your strengths.

Nathan is right there, I am also pretty broad in my repetoire, but when it comes to something I feel can be written better by another composer who is more adept then it is professionally ethical to refer. As you stretch and learn and practice various styles, you can learn to produce them and give them your own sound. I mean this is what music production is all about in the commercial world.

Your work is well constructed musically, but orchestrally and identifiably weak. Basically to be blunt, you need to discover what makes your music yours. This is where I was over 10 years ago, and I dove into myself and tried to figure out what would make my music stand out from the crowd

What I glean from this is 1) you're focusing mostly on stuff in the "orchestral section" and 2) your feeling is that it's too generic? I'd agree with that. Nothing there is stylistically new by any means. But this was a deliberate choice. In an attempt to make myself more marketable, I tried to write a set of styles that are commonly sought after: a driving action piece, a heartfelt piece, an eerie horror piece, etc. I do write lots of "out there stuff" that is unique. I'm not saying it's good, but it's definitely weird, for better or for worse. Only a couple of those are on my site though. Go a couple quotes down for the continuation of this discussion.

This being said, your music would totally fit in the casual market

What do you mean by this?

Yes, it is hard to find a project, but you could also find game play video and re-score various games with your music as an example. It's a humbling experience to say the least. What games do you like to play? Perhaps pick one to try to score. Start small, try writing a title and background track for an existing iOS game or something.

This is a really good idea, and I've only realized recently that this is what I should have been doing all along.

The composition is fine, but the production value isn't. You don't hear a lot of patch instruments outside of games and online media. If you wanted to improve on the production values I would recommend replacing some of the midi with real instruments. Just 1 or 2 real instruments in a track can elevate the whole piece significantly.

I'm guessing you're talking about the orchestral stuff. I know, there is definitely a huge gap between what I have and a blockbuster score, or a good TV show that has a real score. There are certain shows that use virtual instruments for orchestral cues (How I Met Your Mother comes to mind), but those aren't exactly priding themselves on having a full blown orchestral score. I will definitely try to acquire more live performers to add those elements to tracks. Naturally, this is just a difficulty of money and resources. Hopefully getting my hands on some real projects will allow that to happen.

I think this is incredibly overrated. Alan Menken composes a whole lot of pastiche, but there is still a level to his compositions and understanding of drama that sets him worlds apart from most contemporary composers

I adore Alan Menken. He's one of my heroes. He takes a known style and writes a perfect embodiment of it, adding his own twists to make it interesting... sometimes even more interesting than the best music of that style!

"Basically to be blunt, you need to discover what makes your music yours."

I think this is incredibly overrated.

I'm only speaking from personal experience and 11 years of discussions at GDC what audio directors are looking for from composers

So this is sort of a whole other discussion. First off, know that it would be my ideal situation to write and promote compositionally interesting stuff to the masses, as a composer who appreciates that type of thing tremendously. GroovyOne, I respect all the experience and success you've had with your method. But not even a master has experienced all facets of an industry. On this topic, it seems obvious to me that it completely depends on the specific developer you're trying to work with. It will probably depend on what industry (film, video game, etc), what genre, what size studio, what country the developer is in, what area of the country the developer is in, and of course the personalities of everyone managing the audio direction. Some game directors will be fine to request a simple, standard action track and be on their merry way. As you said Groovy, these might tend to be more the indie studios who are focused on just shipping their game. Others will really strive to get something completely original (probably usually a dedicated audio director), and I commend those people for pushing video game music forward as an art. To say that one approach will be favorable 100% of the time seems foolish. In fact, many listeners and clients can be put off by something that is too unique and original, even if it is good and fitting music, as they want it to be easily accessible and digestible for the mainstream. Maybe these aren't the people you want to work with, but still... it's work, and writing common styles is just as fun. I find this to be like the discussion of the best resume format, where everyone has their own idea of what the only right way to do it is.

REGARDLESS THOUGH, it is a goal of mine to be able to write unique music that is good. It can't hurt. It can't hurt to be able to do both standard stuff and out-of-the-box stuff. The problem is, I can practice developing a more unique sound on my own, but I don't feel that I can practice writing appropriate, fitting music for a production any further without having a real production to work on. This was the original point of the post, trying to get my hands on even just a small project to work on.

If a client came to me asking for something I'm not good or experienced in, like hip hop/rap, then I'd refer them to someone who I feel could match their needs. One of the biggest mistakes I see young(er) composers make is try to write/produce every single kind of style/genre out there. Know your limits. Continue to keep learning and stretching yes, but realize and captalize on your strengths.

I completely agree. I suppose I didn't realize I would be completely inept at western until I actually tried it. Leaving the project was at my own request, by the way. He asked for my help even after informing him I had never done a western, and still wanted me to continue trying after I failed horribly. Very understanding guy. Bringing this occurrence up was just meant to emphasize the mental state I'm in, and give reasoning for my low confidence. I really shouldn't advertise on my site that I do sound design though, as I've not done enough of it... At least the rest of the items I've done enough of to say that I "do" them, even if I suck at them. If I can't advertise something until I'm good at, I should probably delete my whole website then eh ;) Everyone needs a start somewhere, to gain traction and momentum.

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I greatly appreciate everyone who has responded. It's more than I expected. I'd like to come back to my original questions though... mostly the practical ones.

What other forums are you guys a part of? Do you attend workshops? Conventions? Are you members of ASCAP? Do you recommend trying to join a production house? Contributing to stock music sites?

Again, just trying to get my hands on some small, low key projects to practice. Where did you guys start?

Thank you