sounds like i ought to give first person view a try.

one concern:

this method was used in one of the star trek flight sims. next gen, i think it was. but it didn't work well. the command options were limited, and the AI was weak. I think they may have made it so you could only complete a mission one way, and only gave you the orders to do that. You almost always resorted to manual override and took control of the ship yourself. and the flight model when you did so was very poor. Having written the first star trek flight sim ever (my 15 minutes of fame), i put the game away in disgust after only a few missions. and this was a game that came on something like 6 CD's!

Has anyone seen an example of first person capital ship combat that was done well?

As mentioned in this post, it goes without saying that the sailing simulation model and AI will have to be up to the job.

FP view and TP view in the form of Coptercam or what the hell you called it

FP view and TP view in the form of Coptercam or what the hell you called it

You mean offer both and let the player toggle between them during combat? like different views in a flight or racing sim?

Be a bit more work, but it would give you the best of both worlds.

But there's still the targeting issue with 3rd person. unless you go for an almost 2D top down view, or have 3rd person "gun cam", "helm cam" and maybe "crow's nest cam" views the player can toggle through, as well as a copter cam or sky cam view. sky cam makes targeting harder. sure you can turn on all the target tracking arcs and stuff that draws an f-22 style HUD on the battle scene in skycam view with Age of Sail II, but it sort of spoils the suspension of disbelief.

I'm thinking of a naval combat sailing simulator where you the player duck in your chair at your desk as your character dives and rolls to avoid a falling mast in battle, and all you need is a black powder scented air freshener to compete the effect - Argh Matey! <g>.

FP view and TP view in the form of Coptercam or what the hell you called it

But there's still the targeting issue with 3rd person

do you abolutely HAVE to be able to shoot in that view too? cant the exteriour view just serve as an observation of your ships condition or just simply be there to make the player feel awesome? why cant you pick an order in the FP screen, lets say "cannons", then the screen switches to the "cnnons screen" where you are served with aiming and everything you need. its more work, but more cinematic and cool, combine that with some epic music and the self-loving emotion in the player

I think such a game could get interesting, especially if you can walk around on the ship and have different views that are more suited to certain activities.

Though I would imagine you being the captain of a ship with enough people to handle the details while you have better things to do, not the lonely guy on the one hand sailing boat who needs to do everything himself.

I picture pirate ship battles as being mostly about:

- Attempting to aim the side-mounted of cannons at the enemy ship. Cannons have little ability to be aimed individually

- Getting close enough to board the ship

- Perhaps starting a fire to finish off an enemy ship

My image of such battles may be way off, but I always remember the overwhelming priority being to get side-on to the enemy and fire the side-mounted cannons, while keeping the enemy's front/back pointed at you to prevent them from doing the same. This is similar to fighter plane dogfights, which I see as being about getting into a desirable position directly behind (and somewhat above) the enemy.

As such, I imagine fixed side views being most useful for aiming cannons (perhaps with predicted cannonball path indicators). Some sort of tactical/birds-nest view would also make sense. And probably a forward-facing/adjustable view for cruising around.

My image of such battles may be way off, but I always remember the overwhelming priority being to get side-on to the enemy and fire the side-mounted cannons, while keeping the enemy's front/back pointed at you to prevent them from doing the same.

The secondary goal of firing at the enemy's bow/stern is to maximise the damage you are dealing. A cannon ball fired at the bow/stern can travel the entire length of the ship, dealing massive damage, and the stern in particular is much less heavily reinforced than the sides of the hull.

Also worth noting that most warships had a couple of 'chasers'. These are long cannons in the bows, aimed forward to slow/disable at long range a ship you are chasing.

do you abolutely HAVE to be able to shoot in that view too? cant the exteriour view just serve as an observation of your ships condition or just simply be there to make the player feel awesome? why cant you pick an order in the FP screen, lets say "cannons", then the screen switches to the "cnnons screen" where you are served with aiming and everything you need. its more work, but more cinematic and cool, combine that with some epic music and the self-loving emotion in the player

Good point, you don't have to be able to shoot in skycam view. I just figured that anyone using it as their preferred view due to better situational awareness would want full controls at hand. But you can't shoot torpedoes in skycam view in Silent hunter IV either. They do it more like you describe, your typical submarine sim interface, where you have different screens for different stations and can jump between them.

how to handle the transition from first person "on deck" view to views of other stations is an issue i'm pondering for more than one title. I ran into it yesterday when working on my airship flight sim. There, the main view is the "bridge", but now i want a way to let the player switch to "observation car" view to drop bombs. its an interface design question.

In sub sims they usually have buttons you click on and hotkeys to switch views. In first person view, I would think it would have to be a hotkey, or something like opening a door or entering a corridor that takes you to another station... but there aren't many corridors or doors on the deck of a tall ship. or maybe you select object in the scene with the spacebar. select the wheel to go to the helm station view, select any gun to go to the gunnery station view, select the charts on the captain's table on the quarterdeck to go to the charts and navigation view, etc. Almost like a 3D VR version of those 2D between mission menus they used to do in flight sims. It would be a picture of an office or something , and you'd click on things to load, save, view mission briefing, look at your medals, begin next mission, etc.

sounds like fps view supplemented by station screens and various "whatever" cams, may be the way to go. and selecting a 3d object in first person view to go to a station screen would probably work well. my caveman fps/rpg/person sim uses this to good effect to trigger action menus for objects in the environment yo can interact with. once at a station screen, there could be a "leave station" button that returned you to first person view.

I think such a game could get interesting, especially if you can walk around on the ship and have different views that are more suited to certain activities.

Though I would imagine you being the captain of a ship with enough people to handle the details while you have better things to do, not the lonely guy on the one hand sailing boat who needs to do everything himself.

Yes, in combat, the player would mostly give orders and oversee the situation. Similar to playing a conventional sailing or sub sim. So it would probably be mostly hotkeying up the orders menu, and switching views (not stations). but at the critical moment, the player might take the helm, or take command of a gun crew for one shot, or give the order to fire a broadside himself, instead of delegating it to his "gunnery officer". Examples of such abound in film.

It would probably not work well to force the player to select crew members to give orders during battle. I can just see the player stuck in a sword fight repelling boarders on the main deck, and needing to run up to the quarter deck to select the helmsman to order him to ram or something. so a hotkey and a menu of orders you shout out to the appropriate crew member seems to be the only way to do it, short of voice recognition. that would be cool - you'd say "Argh matey! Fire as ye bear!" and the AI would do it!

When not in combat, it would make perfect sense for the player to go around issuing orders to various crew members by selecting them and talking to them.

I am really enjoying this thread, by the way. Isn't it cool!

Clinton