[quote name='Dwarf King' timestamp='1348698079' post='4984143']
Or the unemployment rate and the nation's economic situation

I have a hard time feeling sorry for all my classmates who chose to major in classical literature, and are now out of work. It was pretty evident that there were no jobs in that field long before they decided on their major.

The ones who did it out of love for the subject, and actually worked towards a goal? Most of them have jobs.

Unemployment is a sad fact of reality for many people, but the affluent kids with college degrees by-and-large made their own bed to sleep in.
[/quote]

With all respect Sir, then I do not believe you know how hard the financial crisis hit the first world countries. Also remember that some people did sadly not grew up in a environment where going to school was the goal. Drug abusers also get kids, alcoholics get kids and these people must struggle hard to overcome the violence and abuse they encountered in their childhood. Do not say that we are all born equal with the same starting point. I was lucky enough to be born in a nice family but many sadly did not.

Also regarding the choice of college degrees then perhaps you would notice that around 15-17 percent graduated economists are unemployed, engineers(non IT majors) also find it harder to find jobs and so on. Only we the coders/software dudes seem to be in luck at the moment(I just turned down down a job as a programmer offer the other day). When a society lacks money it will lack jobs.

No philosophy can change that. In countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece(in Greece life important medicine is hard to get now due to high prices and lower financially gov support) the population with or without degrees must face the cruel reality of salary cut downs everyday and the prices of gods do not necessarily decrease for the moment.

Your standpoint shows that you lack economical skills to comprehend the seriousness of this financial crisis and the impact it has on the population of EU citizens. You also lack the social science skills to comprehend how social inheritance affect the outcome of a human being as he/she grow up. Theses skills are a must for people who wish to understand human behavior and how a society works.

You should also know that a person who ONLY love literature and hate math and codes never would feel home at a CS department(in most cases). Try to put Tolkien at a computer science department... We do also need people who can write literature and stories(also for movies, computer games and TV) in the future. We also need translators and teachers in the future.

Okay that was a long post, but I felt it was necessary to correct you on these issues. After all I have been dealing with these problems(financial crises and their impact on a society) during my minor in economics and it simply just hurts my eyes each time a person decides to tell people that if only they choose the right choice then they will succeed... Never gonna happen as this is the real world where the rules of supply and demand and global free competition rules. Welcome to the real and brutal world where jobs are outsourced and the size of salary also has a voice

Their is only one rule back and that is "the person who has the ability to press the "shift" button will succeed". Not all can do this(due to family, lack of money or illness etc.) and so they must face a lot of hardship.

It is currently impossible to purchase time with money... therefore make sure you spend your time wisely rather than trading it for something that can be accrued easily. I've always lived by that rule and will only work on projects that I find interesting and that have great opportunities for learning new things.

Thanks.

[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1348698973' post='4984149']
[quote name='Dwarf King' timestamp='1348698079' post='4984143']
Or the unemployment rate and the nation's economic situation

I have a hard time feeling sorry for all my classmates who chose to major in classical literature, and are now out of work. It was pretty evident that there were no jobs in that field long before they decided on their major.

The ones who did it out of love for the subject, and actually worked towards a goal? Most of them have jobs.

Unemployment is a sad fact of reality for many people, but the affluent kids with college degrees by-and-large made their own bed to sleep in.
[/quote]

With all respect Sir, then I do not believe you know how hard the financial crisis hit the first world countries. Also remember that some people did sadly not grew up in a environment where going to school was the goal. Drug abusers also get kids, alcoholics get kids and these people must struggle hard to overcome the violence and abuse they encountered in their childhood. Do not say that we are all born equal with the same starting point. I was lucky enough to be born in a nice family but many sadly did not.

Also regarding the choice of college degrees then perhaps you would notice that around 15-17 percent graduated economists are unemployed, engineers(non IT majors) also find it harder to find jobs and so on. Only we the coders/software dudes seem to be in luck at the moment(I just turned down down a job as a programmer offer the other day). When a society lacks money it will lack jobs.

No philosophy can change that. In countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece(in Greece life important medicine is hard to get now due to high prices and lower financially gov support) the population with or without degrees must face the cruel reality of salary cut downs everyday and the prices of gods do not necessarily decrease for the moment.

Your standpoint shows that you lack economical skills to comprehend the seriousness of this financial crisis and the impact it has on the population of EU citizens. You also lack the social science skills to comprehend how social inheritance affect the outcome of a human being as he/she grow up. Theses skills are a must for people who wish to understand human behavior and how a society works.

You should also know that a person who ONLY love literature and hate math and codes never would feel home at a CS department(in most cases). Try to put Tolkien at a computer science department... We do also need people who can write literature and stories(also for movies, computer games and TV) in the future. We also need translators and teachers in the future.

Okay that was a long post, but I felt it was necessary to correct you on these issues. After all I have been dealing with these problems(financial crises and their impact on a society) during my minor in economics and it simply just hurts my eyes each time a person decides to tell people that if only they choose the right choice then they will succeed... Never gonna happen as this is the real world where the rules of supply and demand and global free competition rules. Welcome to the real and brutal world where jobs are outsourced and the size of salary also has a voice

Their is only one rule back and that is "the person who has the ability to press the "shift" button will succeed". Not all can do this(due to family, lack of money or illness etc.) and so they must face a lot of hardship.
[/quote]

This. Times ten.

I read a lot and experience a lot, and I agree with you completely.

For example, there is a thread at cgtalk.com where someone mention that due to out sourcing, even good westerner 3d artist, in order to survive, have to move to India, etc.

In other word, since the job is outsourced there, and your skill is in that area, might as well as work there, at their salary point, and living condition. Its either that or being jobless. Besides, are we already forgotten (even though I'm not American) the moment IT outsourcing was become huge? Jobless programmers everywhere. (previously, technology and belief is causing IT job to stay in country. But after realizing that Indian programmer is as good, if not better, at lower salary point, suddenly IT outsourcing is a huge boom that programmers is getting pink slip everywhere).

So, to people who have been living in the ivory tower and travelling on the high horse, please wear other people shoe too. Thanks.

You should also know that a person who ONLY love literature and hate math and codes never would feel home at a CS department(in most cases). Try to put Tolkien at a computer science department...

Tolkien was also a theoretical linguist - I imagine he'd have been quite at home in a CS department. Does the name 'Noam Chomsky' ring any bells?

The majority of computer science is not about 'math and codes'.

it simply just hurts my eyes each time a person decides to tell people that if only they choose the right choice then they will succeed...[/quote]
Perhaps I could have been more clear in my phrasing, but I wasn't claiming that at all. As I said, my statement only applies to "affluent, college educated" people.

The same restrictions don't apply to us, as apply to the general population. Of the people I know with a similar background, those who aren't employed are the ones who failed to make any effort to address employability. If you applied to internships, took on academic research, published papers, etc. then you seem to have a pretty good chance of employment, even as an English major.

The majority of computer science is not about 'math and codes'.

Noam Chomsky was of another time. Also I did take a BA in Chinese(hence linguistic) and now doing a CS degree and do find that grammar analysis and algorithm analysis can be similar but still it is really not the same. Perhaps the focus from nation to nation or University to university is different. At our department it is mandatory to take several classes(in fact half the program) which math majors are taking. In fact our whole nation put CS department together with the Mat department. Even simple classes such as database management deals with theoretical logic from the school of logic. Saying that the majority of CS is NOT about mat and codes is really wrong. CS is a major dealing with the management of information and that is done by using the mathematics to instruct a machine to do this through codes or math(depending on the abstraction level you work and what you work with).

How would you make AND, NAND, OR or XOR gates do anything without the MAT to trig this or at least test and prove that it works?

How would you make good cryptology software without the extended Euclidean algorithm(which is by the way built on math theory).

Computer Science IS about Math(including the logic from Boolean etc.) and codes as that is what you use in order to make the stuff happen on the screen. All the API we use is also math down on hardware level. How about hash tables? How about Boolean logic when making databases? How about... etc. etc.

Even when making games or 3D technology it is all math and logic(linear algebra). 3D technology is also used in drones, surveillance and other technologies that CS department do research within and there that math is a VERY import tool.

To be honestly with you everything we touch is more or less related to or is strongly connected to Math. A Computer Scientist would be very sad without Math.

Ahhh another long post. Sorry..

[quote name='Dwarf King' timestamp='1348698079' post='4984143']
Or the unemployment rate and the nation's economic situation

I have a hard time feeling sorry for all my classmates who chose to major in classical literature, and are now out of work. It was pretty evident that there were no jobs in that field long before they decided on their major.

The ones who did it out of love for the subject, and actually worked towards a goal? Most of them have jobs.

Unemployment is a sad fact of reality for many people, but the affluent kids with college degrees by-and-large made their own bed to sleep in.
[/quote]But the issue was doing what you enjoy, not being employed at all. Maybe they did classical literature because that is what they enjoy - but there aren't jobs in that area.

Those of us who like programming are lucky that there are so many jobs for us doing what we enjoy. Other people have to make the choice between doing what they enjoy (but harder to find a job), or taking a job in something they don't enjoy.

And just because there exist privileged people who create their own bad situation, doesn't mean that all people who aren't in jobs they enjoy come from privileged backgrounds.

Tolkien was also a theoretical linguist - I imagine he'd have been quite at home in a CS department.[/quote]Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But I think going from "people can all get jobs they enjoy" to "people can all get jobs they enjoy, so long as they like working in IT/CS" is not quite the same thing...

Computer Science IS about Math(including the logic from Boolean etc.) and codes as that is what you use in order to make the stuff happen on the screen.

Logic is a fairly abstract branch of philosophy. Software engineering has more to do with business requirements than it does with mathematics.

Yes, computers are implemented in terms of basic arithmetic, but that doesn't mean that computer science is a branch of mathematics. Your brain is implemented in terms of neurons firing - does that mean you have to be a neuroscientist in order to think?

Even when making games or 3D technology it is all math and logic(linear algebra).[/quote]
3D is one of fairly few areas of programming that is obsessed with mathematics (albeit rarely beyond a little linear algebra). How much math do you use when writing a web server? Business logic for GUI app?

[quote name='swiftcoder' timestamp='1348751299' post='4984334']
The majority of computer science is not about 'math and codes'.

...long post on necessity of math and code in CS...
[/quote]

I agree with swiftcoder. The subject of "computer science" is "Doing science with computers", not "learning how to write code" as is often the misconception. You could theoretically do computer science without ever writing a line of code.

Also: All of mathematics is founded on logic (see Peano Arithmetic). So, if math is founded upon logic, and computer programming is founded on math and logic, then really, computer programming is in fact only founded upon logic (which includes set theory).

Software engineering has more to do with business requirements than it does with mathematics.

I'd say that in that case software engineering has more to do with business requirements than it does with computer science, as well. I can't imagine being very good at computer science, at least as it applies to the study of computation, without being very good at math too, even if one treats logic itself as distinct from mathematics.

No one is claiming that computer science is a branch of mathematics, but it seems to me that there's not a lot of room for original work that doesn't demand pretty solid mathematical knowledge.

The subject of "computer science" is "Doing science with computers",

Actually I would describe it as the "science of computation" is which a bit different than what you proposed.