Situation: You are creating a Game Development system; it is targeted at non-programmers but is powerful & flexible enough for its particular genre. Goal: To create a community around this program thus sustaining interest. This would be accomplished via offical and fan websites, showcasing games and content made with the Dev system, which are POSSIBLY offered for sale by the creators (inexpensively). Problem: Should "prepackaged" content(art, music, fx) & routines be included with this system? Pros: -Added value to the product -Allows users to get started immediately -Good placeholders for conceptual stage Cons: -Risk of glut of games which are alike -Inevitable Lack of distinction between projects creates unprofessional appearance -True gems will get lost in crowded "market" The ideal behind the system would be that if you take the time to create unique & quality content, a polished professional game will be the result. The fear is that by including assets you may smother the fledgeling community you are trying to build with mediocrity from the less dedicated individuals. Ultimately this apparent amatureish homogeneity may scare away potential buyers looking for a serious tool. Shipping the dev system bare-bones with maybe a few examples would narrow the field down to the dedicated visionaries, and would hopefully result a better ratio of quality products. Your opinons are welcomed!

from my experience pre-packaged game development kits arent really much good, because they only appeal to the "newbie" market, and not even a positive side at that. Most kits I´ve seen so far appeal to the "I wanna make a game but i have no skills" crowd, thus making them believe that they don´t need skills to make good games.

Most serious developers have their own engines (2d) and sound systems, or have professional licensed 3d engines. The technology that is acquired from external companies is usually heavily modified to suit the special needs, usually sound, interface and graphics aren´t even from the same product/company/team.

To get back to the starting point, I have my doubts that the tool could be powerful, yet simple enough to be used by non-programmers (how non is a non-programmer? nothing? basic object orientend programming? scripting experience?). Even if you go for simple games you have to have some sort of internal scripting language...

..and to your question:

if you include content/graphics/sfx AND are aiming at the non-programmer then your target group is the know-nothing kiddie who thinks it would be cool to make games (it is, but he probably knows nothing about coding, art or sound, and by a package like that is tricked into believing that there isn´t much to it). There is definitely a market there, there are literally millions of kids around who want to make games the easy way. You probably won´t have many really good games though, as the more advanced users will probably avoid your system (easyness of use is usually inversely proportional to flexibility and power).

So if you want a system that is used for good games, then you´ll have to ship it without sounds and graphics (a few sets of dummies for testing will be enough). Maybe you´ll want to change your target audience from non-coders to semi-skilled coders, allowing for greater flexibilty and power, which will in turn attract the more dedicated users who are more inclined to spend more time on it, thereby creating better games.

And you´ll probably have to make a cool demo game, just for advertisement purposes.

I agree with everything Hase said, and my extra $.02 is simply that if you want your GDK to have any longevity, it probably has to do two things very well: Expose it''s internals through scripting or something to allow power users to develop more advanced widgets for your GDK, and be able to step in and supply all the necessary code when newbie hax0rs don''t override procedures with their own stuff.

Actually it means that your scripting has to be OO with inheritance... bwah! Nice!

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-WarMage
...shove a spoon in my mouth and call me... spoony?...

THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE BEFORE!

Remember the AGT? Or Adventure Game Toolkit?

Remember Click N'' Play? By Maxis?

In the past it has been a good idea, and I would support anyone who tries to make a more modern version... although the idea of selling a game made with a program like that sounds rather dumb, giving people the power to create who wouldn''t normally have the ability sounds like a worthwhile idea.

CodeSmith the Pixel Pusher
www.cs.trinity.edu/~csmith8

Definitely add in some content. Don''t go overboard. I reccomend adding just enough to let the user play around with before they make their own content.

-Forcas

"Elvis is alive. He is Barney the purple dinosaur. He is the pied piper that leads our children into the wages of sin and eternal damnation."

not only has it been done...

www.clickteam.com just released it''s scripting language based JAMAGIC, which I''ve beta tested for them, and discovered that it really isn''t for NEW newbies, but if you know basic OOB in C++ then you can create a host of very cool games on a small scale, and if you pitch the time into it you can assemble a file structure system and create a real sizeable project. I can''t present you with any demos of this size... yet

I''ll repost this thread when I do though,

Overall I''ll agree with the general tone of the replies thus far, GDKs are good for kiddies, but they make it look easier than it is.


www.spforge.com - God created the world in seven days? I think I can one-up him!

I''m completely against the negative criticism that any GDK will only be used by newbies. Isn''t DX8 a GDK? I''m sorry... a Software Developement Kit, that must be something completely different.

So the fact that it''s a GDK doesn''t make it automatically targeted toward minor projects. It seems like this one is however, which raises the question: What''s wrong with small, simple, games made by an GDK? People won''t expect to make a ton of money, but there will probably be a few games made that will have some entertainment value... not counting the entertainment of the would-be programers.

Anyway... I think it would definately be a good idea to include some content... some samples... to get people started. If you''re worried about good games being overshadowed by the games that come out as adjusted samples, don''t be. I think that the good games or senarios or adventures made in any GDK will shine through.

-Jason

I really like this idea, and how ZZT (way back, wayyy back.. implemented it. Excellent scripting system, the only thing was it had ASCII graphics. But I do vote you put some content in. Maybe basics, but with a built in art editor that has some big shiny loud button, for the newbie kiddies. Go look at ZZT''s scripting system for good pointers...I knew NOTHING about programming before I touched it, could do a ton in it in a week - and people still are making new ways to use it! Goto zzt.org if ya don''t believe me. It got me interested in programming, then here I am, bugging you all.