Hi, I am making an MMORPG with a few of my friends. I just wanted to ask for people''s opinions about lighting since we just can''t decide. I would really appreciate any comments or opinions. Pre-calculated Radiosity: Lighting Realism and much better graphics quality vs. Dynamic Lights: Loss of realism and graphics quality. Addition of features such as, - Portable Lights e.g. Flash Light (directional light) for moving into dark caves and such - Smooth transition between day and night as the sun comes up and goes down Which one should we choose? Sorry to be asking here but all of us are completely 50/50 and can''t decide. Thanks alot for any comments or opinions.

Well, if you''re can''t do portable lighting with a radiosity engine, I think it would be a poor decision to do that. Portable lighting is something that we all take for granted no matter what world we play in. Can''t stumble around in the dark, and atmospheric lighting can''t really compensate for the loss of immersion, IMHO.

Also, if it''s pre-rendered radiosity, I''m kinda confisued as to how you animate any of the action with a radiosity engine, I don''t really understand what process you are thinking about.

My $.02
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-WarMage
...little nicky snoring is totally hilarious...

These days I''m real picky about mis- or cross-posting. What does this have to do with the design of the game per se? I think you''d get much better and more focused replies in the Graphics Programming and Theory forum (they''ll be better able to debate the pros and cons of radiosity and dynamic lighting as well).

But I leave that decision to the powers that be.

What''s the environment, setting, and gameplay? A lot will depend on that, won''t it? If you''re going for a lot of dungeon crawling, and you''re trying to scare people (and the environs aren''t too mutable), then I''d vote for precalculated. But a lot depends on what exactly you''re trying to do.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

First off, thank you all very much for replying

quote:
These days I''m real picky about mis- or cross-posting. What does this have to do with the design of the game per se? I think you''d get much better and more focused replies in the Graphics Programming and Theory forum (they''ll be better able to debate the pros and cons of radiosity and dynamic lighting as well).

I am not really talking about programming or theory. I am not sure but I think its more of a design question because it is asking whether certain design features are worth the loss of quality in graphics.

If it has to move, I am not sure where to since the Lounge doesn''t seem to like game related topics too much and anywhere else doesn''t quite match either. I know the lounge is supposed to be for everything but I always get a litte bid of a negative response when I post something about games there.

Anyway, I''m sorry. Any moderators, please move my post if required.

quote:
What''s the environment, setting, and gameplay? A lot will depend on that, won''t it? If you''re going for a lot of dungeon crawling, and you''re trying to scare people (and the environs aren''t too mutable), then I''d vote for precalculated. But a lot depends on what exactly you''re trying to do.

Well the game being massive-multiplayer, has all types of environments. The game is sci-fi therefore there will be no dungeons. The only scary dark places are 1. dark alien colony 2. underground sewers 3. dark caves

The decision to go with radiosity would mean removing those from the game, which is not a big deal since we havn''t started work on those specific locations yet. Its also a very minor part of the game, as most of the game is in cities, forests, deserts, etc. Its elimination wouldn''t be a big deal but its addition would have probably been a bonus.

quote:
Well, if you''re can''t do portable lighting with a radiosity engine, I think it would be a poor decision to do that. Portable lighting is something that we all take for granted no matter what world we play in. Can''t stumble around in the dark, and atmospheric lighting can''t really compensate for the loss of immersion, IMHO.

When in dark areas, we could use night vision as an option. This would require more work on our part but it could act as a replacement for portable light.
How about that? Do you think night vision could be an equal substitute for portable lights?

quote:
Also, if it''s pre-rendered radiosity, I''m kinda confisued as to how you animate any of the action with a radiosity engine, I don''t really understand what process you are thinking about.

Well I am not the one doing it so I can''t get into any specifics. But we are basically pre-calculating it for the scene, storing the results of the radiosity as lightmaps and then using dynamic lightmaps with them at runtime.

quote: Original post by Cameron
I am not really talking about programming or theory. I am not sure but I think its more of a design question because it is asking whether certain design features are worth the loss of quality in graphics.

Don''t get me wrong - I could see some potential design issues, but I simply wanted you to specify that those were the matters under consideration (there''s been a lot of inappropriate posts recently), and now that you have I believe this forum is the perfect place for this thread.

And I agree with you that the Lounge is somewhat "ambiguous" these days.

I think pre-calculated radiosity is a powerful tool for creating highly atmospheric environments. Without them you''d have to resort to textures. The interesting thing is that in a sense you can consider the radiosity of an environment as form of texture - light texture, if you will.

Dynamic lighting, OTOH, can be used to provide some stunning effects, especially in highly interactive 3D environments. Flashlights penetrating the darkness (Alone In the Dark: The New Nightmare ), glare from explosions, pulsing intensities from rotary signals...

The thing is, I feel it''s possible to use both dynamic lighting and precalculated radiosity: employ radiosity in generating environments and then apply dynamic lighting to objects within a threshold (the idea being that optical falloff makes a nearby light ineffectual on a reasonably distant object). You can even apply the dynamic lighting to "background," so long as it falls within your threshold.

quote: Well I am not the one doing it so I can''t get into any specifics. But we are basically pre-calculating it for the scene, storing the results of the radiosity as lightmaps and then using dynamic lightmaps with them at runtime.

I think this is an excellent implementation and almost exactly what I mentioned above; the only real difference is my introduction of a "cutoff distance."

quote: Original post by Cameron
If it has to move, I am not sure where to since the Lounge doesn''t seem to like game related topics too much and anywhere else doesn''t quite match either. I know the lounge is supposed to be for everything but I always get a litte bid of a negative response when I post something about games there.

Anyway, I''m sorry. Any moderators, please move my post if required.

Don''t worry, I would have moved it if I thought it was off-topic.

quote:
Well the game being massive-multiplayer, has all types of environments. The game is sci-fi therefore there will be no dungeons. The only scary dark places are 1. dark alien colony 2. underground sewers 3. dark caves

The decision to go with radiosity would mean removing those from the game, which is not a big deal since we havn''t started work on those specific locations yet. Its also a very minor part of the game, as most of the game is in cities, forests, deserts, etc. Its elimination wouldn''t be a big deal but its addition would have probably been a bonus.

I think a lot still depends on the overall "average" environment. This essentially sets the tone. Cities, forests, and deserts can be made dark and foreboding by lighting, of course. You also mentioned day & night cycles. Are these central for immersion in your game?

Also, which option has the least amount of risk for gain? That''s another factor.



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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Dynamic lighting, OTOH, can be used to provide some stunning effects, especially in highly interactive 3D environments. Flashlights penetrating the darkness (Alone In the Dark: The New Nightmare ), glare from explosions, pulsing intensities from rotary signals...

I know that this is totally unneccesary, but I think I'll just comment on that. Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare's flashlight lighting is actually done a different way. Each room has 2 versions of itself, one light, one dark. The game detects which direction the flashlight is pointing and what (circular) part of the room should be affected by this. Then the game loads that part of the bright room in that circular area.


Also I'd like to say that I think you should use dynamic lighting (I love dynamic lighting). If you have futuristic cars in your cities then they can have working headlights in the dark, etc.

Broad Sword
Broad Sword Software
http://www/bssonline.net
broadsword@bssonline.net

Edited by - Broad Sword on October 6, 2001 4:19:24 AM

I find it intresting that no-one has mentioned it here (or I am misunderstanding this lighting concept you speak of.)

I say, you can have your lights, and move them too

Why not implement the radiocity lightmaps of some sort, and then use some form of dynamic lighting (dynamic light maps, or vertex or somthing)

As far as the the day/night thing. Render a few frames, and do a transition between them every half hour or somthing.


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