Because I misunderstood what Dragonjsoul was saying. (He corrected my misunderstanding in the post after the one you quoted).

When he said, "change the default save folder if you want", I thought incorrectly that he was talking about changing the My Documents folder location, which doesn't help the problem since applications would just save files to the new My Documents location.

Ooops my bad

I believe the correct place for applications to put their data on Windows is into %APPDATA% (as you say). Seems surprising you've got so many going into the Documents level - I'll have to check mine when I'm at home.

Yes, that's how it should be done, but you'd be surprised by how many apps go against this.

I would note though that it's not clear to me you can cleanly distinguish between "my" files and "application's" files. Okay, so music and photos are yours, but why aren't save game files yours? What if I use a graphics program to create an image? If you wanted to backup or transfer your files, wouldn't you want the personal application/game data too? Even if you uninstall, I wouldn't want the save game files to be lost.[/quote]
It's a clear distinction.

"My" files are the ones I've *explicitly* put into my folder, organized by some folder structure. I did it with explicit intent and awareness, with the knowledge of where to find this file(s) later. Good examples are doc files, images from internet you've saved for future use, or your work related content you've created which isn't closely tied to any particular application. These files came from elsewhere and the USER put them into this folder - not any app. In fact, apps should be absolutely prohibited from changing/adding(/removing/accessing) any files to this folder without explicit user authorization.

Savegames are app settings, just like any other app settings file. It should come and go with the application, UNTIL I explicitly export a game's savefiles and put a backup into "my files" folder.

I'd also add that whilst the Documents/ level might be used by applications, this doesn't mean that the sub-folders like Music/ etc are filled by applications?[/quote]
Say hi to My Documents/My Music/iTunes/ folder (and the equivalent library path in Vista/7).

I do agree with you about the annoyance of mobile OSs not letting you have much control over how the files are organised. This seems to have been the trend there always, from BREW to Android. Perhaps there are some arguments for doing so, but I dislike the lack of control. (Thankfully it's not so bad, at least on Symbian and Android, in that you can still use another computer to transfer files, and when doing so you can organise the files/folders how you like.)[/quote]

It might be annoying for more power users, but it's still a much better decision NOT to allow user file organization than to allow it when it is done as poorly as it is done on desktop OSes. One of the reasons a typical 1-2 year laptop becomes extremely bogged down is because of the hundreds of apps that were installed/semi-uninstalled and user files all over the place (desktop, documents, drive D, multiple user accounts, etc. etc.). You don't want phones to inherit these problems.

Having said that, surely there must be some photo/music software that lets you have different views, without messing with the data? That's how all the mobile devices have worked - my Sansa mp3 player, my Nokia 5800 and Galaxy Nexus smartphones, all let me store the data on the drive how I like, and the music software will automatically scan the tags and import them into the library (my Sansa even lets me browse by folder as well, though sadly that seems to be a rare feature...) Or has no one done this for desktop OSs?
[/quote]Android and similar gives you more access here. iOS (non-jailbroken) by default gives you no access. You can only install and use apps, nothing else (although some apps are like file managers and let you keep/organize files). But there are ways of getting around it of course.

I believe Microsoft's intent is for them to save in %APPDATA%, and for backups to backup the entire 'C:/User/<user>' folder, which includes %APPDATA%, which should contain only the application data that is user specific (so you're not accidentally backing up things that can be re-created by the install anyway).

Yes, I basically agree that applications should be installing into %APPDATA%, and anything putting application data into the Documents folder (or using %APPDATA% for non-user data) is doing it wrong.

On Windows 7, Documents is itself a subfolder. I checked to see how many applications are putting stuff in the root c:/user/<user> folder. In my case, it's not many - and all but one of them are cross-platform applications that have annoyingly decided to do the Linux convention of <user home>/.application (which I think is wrong - even cross-platform apps should follow native conventions; plus even on Linux, I think the preference is to put those folders inside a .config folder, to avoid clutter in the root user folder).

Perhaps in future versions of Windows, things will be more strict with permissions that applications are allowed (in the same way that for years, they got away with writing to the Program Files application space, until that was blocked in Vista).

I agree with what you say in your rant

"My" files are the ones I've *explicitly* put into my folder, organized by some folder structure. I did it with explicit intent and awareness, with the knowledge of where to find this file(s) later. Good examples are doc files, images from internet you've saved for future use, or your work related content you've created which isn't closely tied to any particular application. These files came from elsewhere and the USER put them into this folder - not any app. In fact, apps should be absolutely prohibited from changing/adding(/removing/accessing) any files to this folder without explicit user authorization.

Savegames are app settings, just like any other app settings file. It should come and go with the application, UNTIL I explicitly export a game's savefiles and put a backup into "my files" folder.

I think that application data should go into a clear folder - e.g., the %APPDATA%, separate to My Documents/Music/etc, or whatever folders in your user space that you create. Though I'd rather save games not be deleted by default! Ideally it would be an option on uninstall. Aside from the risk of me forgetting, having to export means that I then have to have two copies, and it gets out of date.

I do agree with you about the annoyance of mobile OSs not letting you have much control over how the files are organised. This seems to have been the trend there always, from BREW to Android. Perhaps there are some arguments for doing so, but I dislike the lack of control. (Thankfully it's not so bad, at least on Symbian and Android, in that you can still use another computer to transfer files, and when doing so you can organise the files/folders how you like.)[/quote]

It might be annoying for more power users, but it's still a much better decision NOT to allow user file organization than to allow it when it is done as poorly as it is done on desktop OSes. One of the reasons a typical 1-2 year laptop becomes extremely bogged down is because of the hundreds of apps that were installed/semi-uninstalled and user files all over the place (desktop, documents, drive D, multiple user accounts, etc. etc.). You don't want phones to inherit these problems.[/quote]We're talking about two separate things here - are we talking about the user control of file organisation, or where applications put things? If it's true that a computer gets bogged down if applications put files in the wrong place or leaves installation files behind, then this could still happen even if the user has less control - indeed it's worse, as the user can't even clean it up (and this isn't just about power users - less control to users also means less control to any software to clean up the mess). I mean, the issue I was talking about letting users have control - the issue you describe is applications behaving poorly.

Improved security settings to enforce where applications can put files can improve things, as has been done increasingly in Windows over the versions. This can be done independently of what control a user can have over the file organisation. (And as I say, it's not clear to me that removing all settings files is the right behaviour, and indeed, settings can be preserved or files left behind when you uninstall on phone OSs in some cases.)

And I'm confused - is it that you want to be able to organise files, or you think it's better than you don't?

Plus on phones, there's the advantage that that kind of organisation can be done when you're connected to a PC anyway, so I guess it's pointless trying to worry about offering that on the phone itself. People can and have written file manager phone apps anyway.

Perhaps in future versions of Windows, things will be more strict with permissions that applications are allowed (in the same way that for years, they got away with writing to the Program Files application space, until that was blocked in Vista).

In Windows 8, as far as I know, Metro-style apps are perfectly sandboxed and contained. They can only modify external files via an explicit user action (such a file picker dialog, which you use to select a personal file).

I think that application data should go into a clear folder - e.g., the %APPDATA%, separate to My Documents/Music/etc, or whatever folders in your user space that you create. Though I'd rather save games not be deleted by default! Ideally it would be an option on uninstall. Aside from the risk of me forgetting, having to export means that I then have to have two copies, and it gets out of date.

Sure. The uninstaller can let you choose to keep your app/game settings/savegames behind, or uninstall everything. If you choose to keep and reinstall later, you get everything as it was.

Although I think the best user-experience approach to savegames is to take care of them via some cloud solution.

We're talking about two separate things here - are we talking about the user control of file organisation, or where applications put things? If it's true that a computer gets bogged down if applications put files in the wrong place or leaves installation files behind, then this could still happen even if the user has less control - indeed it's worse, as the user can't even clean it up (and this isn't just about power users - less control to users also means less control to any software to clean up the mess). I mean, the issue I was talking about letting users have control - the issue you describe is applications behaving poorly.

Improved security settings to enforce where applications can put files can improve things, as has been done increasingly in Windows over the versions. This can be done independently of what control a user can have over the file organisation. (And as I say, it's not clear to me that removing all settings files is the right behaviour, and indeed, settings can be preserved or files left behind when you uninstall on phone OSs in some cases.)

And I'm confused - is it that you want to be able to organise files, or you think it's better than you don't?

Plus on phones, there's the advantage that that kind of organisation can be done when you're connected to a PC anyway, so I guess it's pointless trying to worry about offering that on the phone itself. People can and have written file manager phone apps anyway.
[/quote]
They're separate, but quite related issues.

On desktop OSes today, both applications and users can access/save files anywhere. That's why they get intertwined and it's a mess. Users can save important files in C:/Program Files/Some App/ folder, so uninstallers can't do their job properly. Apps can put their files in user's Documents folder, making a mess out of it.

The main reason desktop OSes get bogged down, of course, are the millions of unneeded background processes that get accumulated as the user installs various software, plugins, toolbars. Not to mention the ton of crapware that comes by preinstalled default with a fresh laptop purchase, and most everyday users do not reinstall the OS from scratch like us advanced users.

The reason mobile OSes typically avoid user file system access, even to just a "My Files" folder, is because they want to avoid the mess that is .extensions and app associations for extensions. That system leads for poor user experience. That's why they make the OS very much app-centric.

Personally, I would like it if phones allowed access to file system (but only the "My Files" folder, not entire root access obviously), but I understand that it brings more disadvantages for many other users than advantages for me.

On the desktop side, I think it should be like this... probably... not sure, but let's say apps should only be allowed to access setting files within their own sandbox (as to not pollute user's folders, and so that they can be uninstalled cleanly without leaving mess behind). And users should probably only have Explorer/Finder access to their own "My Files" folder. Maybe allow full file system access only for advanced users (kinda like hidden files are hidden from most typical users but not advanced users).

Just one more thing to keep in mind. Mobile OSes are made primarily for the purpose of media/entertainment consumption. They are not really designed for content creation. Desktop OSes let us do that, and it's important not to mess it up when trying to improve desktop OSes.

My concern for this is primarily business. After working at the same company for 7 years, I'm really struggling with the lack of tagging for spreadsheets. For example, I have a cost model for a pallet project that I am doing for a capital request for 2012. Does that go in the cost model folder, projects folder, pallets folder, or capital request folder? If I put it in the cost model folder, how do I compare that to the CR I did in 2009 for the same thing? Would be nice to be able to search for <CR, pallets, cost model> and have all the relevant data entered. Or <cost models, 2009> if I want to look at all the models I did a particular year. In fact, I'm not sure why I need file systems at all anymore.

Who cares WHERE the data is stored. Click My documents > my personal pictures should be the same result as clicking or typing "my personal pictures" tag. By nature, a directory is a type of tag, so for instance, every file for the game SkyRim should be auto-tagged "skyrim". Anything that would go in a subfolder would be tagged with that subfolder name "Skyrim, textures, world 1, bmp" "Battlefield 3, profiles, config, global" etc etc.

Directories should no longer exist in my opinion. Let the OS figure out where files should go and leave me out of it. I just want to make sure I can find my files and folders when I need them without having to search EVERYTHING on my computer for a filename that I don't remember exactly.

My concern for this is primarily business. After working at the same company for 7 years, I'm really struggling with the lack of tagging for spreadsheets. For example, I have a cost model for a pallet project that I am doing for a capital request for 2012. Does that go in the cost model folder, projects folder, pallets folder, or capital request folder? If I put it in the cost model folder, how do I compare that to the CR I did in 2009 for the same thing? Would be nice to be able to search for <CR, pallets, cost model> and have all the relevant data entered. Or <cost models, 2009> if I want to look at all the models I did a particular year. In fact, I'm not sure why I need file systems at all anymore.

Who cares WHERE the data is stored. Click My documents > my personal pictures should be the same result as clicking or typing "my personal pictures" tag. By nature, a directory is a type of tag, so for instance, every file for the game SkyRim should be auto-tagged "skyrim". Anything that would go in a subfolder would be tagged with that subfolder name "Skyrim, textures, world 1, bmp" "Battlefield 3, profiles, config, global" etc etc.

Directories should no longer exist in my opinion. Let the OS figure out where files should go and leave me out of it. I just want to make sure I can find my files and folders when I need them without having to search EVERYTHING on my computer for a filename that I don't remember exactly.

Totally. File systems are in need of a major overhaul. The main thing is that youd want a unified metadata system at the filesystem level rather than tucked away inside various fileformats. How to represent the data then, hierarchically, or pulled up by various metadata tags, is entirely secondary.

And also: what I often miss is the ability to create orthogonal groupings of data. For instance, I want to be able to access all my code through a 'code' directory, but also be able to slice my data per-project, and have a link from each project to the subset of code belonging to it. That is, nodes in a filesystem should be organized in a general graph, rather than an acyclic tree. Every node should be allowed to have an arbitrary number of parents and children; or none at all, and only be queryable by its metadata. Parent and child relations are essentially nothing but a particular kind of metadata.

Who cares WHERE the data is stored.[/quote]

Every business. If they don't, they are breaking the laws.

For certain law compliance it must also be possible to determine the author and lifecycle of every file.

After working at the same company for 7 years, I'm really struggling with the lack of tagging for spreadsheets.[/quote]

"Most widely used database is Excel" - someone

Why are you using files? Why not a logistic system? They are simply mind-blowing these days.

Who cares WHERE the data is stored.

Every business. If they don't, they are breaking the laws.

For certain law compliance it must also be possible to determine the author and lifecycle of every file.

After working at the same company for 7 years, I'm really struggling with the lack of tagging for spreadsheets.[/quote]

"Most widely used database is Excel" - someone

Why are you using files? Why not a logistic system? They are simply mind-blowing these days.
[/quote]

LOL I'm not running a warehouse with Excel. Have you ever had a logistics job or are you just talking out of your ass? Do you do all your financial modeling from within an ERP system? Presentations? Data Analysis? There's not a TMS or WMS system on the planet that will let you manipulate data inside of the system, I know because we are in development of a new system with one of the largest WMS providers in the world and it's not yet a feature. That's why every logistics and ERP system pushed today still has a button called, "Export to Spreadsheet."

And to your first point, how does tagging affect any of the modification data (author, date, etc)?