http://www.sloperama...ice/catch23.htm Read, “Catch-23.a. You can't get a job without experience, and you can't get experience without a job.”

Catch 23 is nonsense. You can get experience without a job, it's called education or concrete, personal work that you can present (that is relevant to what you want to work with).

The rest I've deleted from my reply, because I feel like I'm either flaming myself or feeding a troll.

You can get experience without a job, it's called education or concrete, personal work that you can present (that is relevant to what you want to work with)

Neither one counts as 'experience' in a hiring sense.

If you have a 4-year degree along with 2 years of personal projects, and you claim '6 years experience in game development', HR will laugh merrily as they shred your resume.

Catch 23 is nonsense. You can get experience without a job

In job ads and in hiring interviews, the word "experience" has a particular meaning. Read The Experience Experience.

It is always a great pleasure to read L Spiro's posts. Some moderators could learn a thing or two in how he/she communicates. I voted you up L Spiro

If you have a 4-year degree along with 2 years of personal projects, and you claim '6 years experience in game development', HR will laugh merrily as they shred your resume.

Maybe I worded myself poorly. My point is that it counts towards your chances of landing a job. I mean, if you have 4 years of education and 2 years worth of actual programs that you can showcase, they'll obviously favor you over someone with no background whatsoever.

Also, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't Thomas "Notch" Persson's earlier job experience that made Bethesda Game Studios want to hire him.

In job ads and in hiring interviews, the word "experience" has a particular meaning. Read The Experience Experience.

Definitely, but I'm talking about experience as is. I.e. that you have practical and theoretical understanding of something. I never said that "just having experience" is all you need to land a job, you obviously need to take use of your experience and actually produce something for them as well - like your own website showcasing your many Java apps, or some major programs and games that have had some success. That's a given.

And the HR people would be pretty stupid if they ignored the fact that it was you who made Braid, Terraria or Minecraft.

And the HR people would be pretty stupid if they ignored the fact that it was you who made Braid, Terraria or Minecraft.

And if you had created one of them then you have made your own money and your own business and don't need an employer.

When *I* am involved with interviews, "experience" means time that a professional organization paid the person to develop software in a professional way within a corporate environment. It doesn't matter if that was contract or hourly or salary, that counts as professional experience.

"Contract experience", which is different than regular experience, is when you are paid by a professional organization to develop software outside a corporate environment.

Finally, "Learning experience" is what was described above. It includes personal projects, educational projects, and anything else done not on a professional environment .


If you managed to bring a game to market on your own, I do not consider that traditional experience. It is a finished and polished learning experience, and is certainly valuable, but I'll take somebody with one year of real experience -- who has worked on real games as part of a team within a corporate ladder -- over someone who has taken their hobby project all the way to the app store.

If you managed to bring a game to market on your own, I do not consider that traditional experience. It is a finished and polished learning experience, and is certainly valuable, but I'll take somebody with one year of real experience -- who has worked on real games as part of a team within a corporate ladder -- over someone who has taken their hobby project all the way to the app store.

Indeed it is a different enviroment, The hobbyists who got headhunted by the big studios didn't get headhunted because of their experience (Making and bringing a game to market isn't that hard), they got headhunted because their extreme success proved that they are great at what they do. (CS and dota are better examples than minecraft).

Maybe I worded myself poorly. My point is that it counts towards your chances of landing a job. I mean, if you have 4 years of education and 2 years worth of actual programs that you can showcase, they'll obviously favor you over someone with no background whatsoever.

Also, I'm pretty sure that it wasn't Thomas "Notch" Persson's earlier job experience that made Bethesda Game Studios want to hire him.

[quote name='Tom Sloper' timestamp='1335566407' post='4935485']
In job ads and in hiring interviews, the word "experience" has a particular meaning. Read The Experience Experience.

Definitely, but I'm talking about experience as is. I.e. that you have practical and theoretical understanding of something. I never said that "just having experience" is all you need to land a job, you obviously need to take use of your experience and actually produce something for them as well - like your own website showcasing your many Java apps, or some major programs and games that have had some success. That's a given.

And the HR people would be pretty stupid if they ignored the fact that it was you who made Braid, Terraria or Minecraft.
[/quote]
#1: You are picking a few who stand out (the very fact that you know their names means they are not the average case) to make an example that you hope to apply to “average Joe”.

#2: But those people had so much passion, direction, and possibly luck, that they didn’t need to ask anyone else if it was too late, what degree to get, etc. For them, everything—what to do and how to do it—was clear from the start. When people ask for help on a forum, we generally assume they are not superstars, and we try to give advice that is applicable to the average case.

#3: And yes, it would be something I would take into account in hiring them. I would try to confirm it during the interview, but my guess is that they don’t work well in teams, and would have trouble yielding to ideas not their own, even if those ideas are correct. I guess they think they need to be in control and would not accept anything but a prestigious position within the company, and I would not be willing to give anyone, including “one-hit” superstars, such a position without a proven background in actual working environments.
It is likely to be the deciding factor in why I don’t hire them.

It is always a great pleasure to read L Spiro's posts. Some moderators could learn a thing or two in how he/she communicates. I voted you up L Spiro

Thank you.


L. Spiro

#1: You are picking a few who stand out (the very fact that you know their names means they are not the average case) to make an example that you hope to apply to “average Joe”.

Personally, I like to think of people as individuals with potential for greatness, until proven otherwise. The only difference between Madonna and the "average joe" is that she actually took the next step. The difference lies in fear, not in capacity. This is actually a well established science.

#2: But those people had so much passion, direction, and possibly luck, that they didn’t need to ask anyone else if it was too late, what degree to get, etc. For them, everything—what to do and how to do it—was clear from the start. When people ask for help on a forum, we generally assume they are not superstars, and we try to give advice that is applicable to the average case.

Strange, I've always thought that the people who ask the most questions are the ones with the strongest desire and potential to succeed, because other people just take the blue pill and accept everything at face value.

#3: And yes, it would be something I would take into account in hiring them. I would try to confirm it during the interview, but my guess is that they don’t work well in teams, and would have trouble yielding to ideas not their own, even if those ideas are correct. I guess they think they need to be in control and would not accept anything but a prestigious position within the company, and I would not be willing to give anyone, including “one-hit” superstars, such a position without a proven background in actual working environments.
It is likely to be the deciding factor in why I don’t hire them.

I have to say that my own ethics seem fundamentally different from yours. If I need to know whether or not someone is a team player, has overly rigid ethics, need to be in control or whatever, there are ways to test this as an interviewer. I'd try to never assume anything, because that'll reflect on my skills as a game designer as well. Assumptions (e.g. about the player, player base or industry at large) can irrevocably cripple a game.

Don't get me wrong, L. Spiro. Maybe we're just speaking in different tongues. But my point is that everything adds up, not just job experience at a game studio. Obviously, one's relevant official job experience is by far the most important one. But that wasn't the issue I brought up.

Personally, I like to think of people as individuals with potential for greatness, until proven otherwise. The only difference between Madonna and the "average joe" is that she actually took the next step.

With that view, then the fact that they haven't taken the next step is indicative that something prevented their greatness. Maybe it was bad luck, but more likely it's a series of personality traits that either hinder their greatness or make it occur in less astounding (or perhaps professionally applicable) ways.

I don't particularly think that it changes your hiring practices or approaches.

Strange, I've always thought that the people who ask the most questions are the ones with the strongest desire and potential to succeed,
[/quote]

It's also well established science that people faced with many choices tend to make none. This forum is rife with examples.