[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1321551960' post='4885030']
I think patent trolling is unethical definitely. I just don't think filing for ridiculous patents in an environment where patent trolling exists is unethical until you start patent trolling.

Which Apple have.
[/quote]

We should arrest people for buying guns because it is illegal to shoot people

edit: unrelated to the reply, I had a dream last night about Z-day where Z-day was a conspiracy to deflect from patent reform

double edit: My metaphor is less than ideal on thinking about it. With the gun example it would be more like someone who has shot someone before buying a gun being arrested after buying another gun, but the point is I'm just not ready to judge the ethics of this particular case as unethical until they actually do something unethical regardless of how ethical they've been in the past.

This is coming from someone who does not hold Apple in especially high esteem also.

Remember?

[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1321624683' post='4885307']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1321551960' post='4885030']
I think patent trolling is unethical definitely. I just don't think filing for ridiculous patents in an environment where patent trolling exists is unethical until you start patent trolling.

Which Apple have.
[/quote]

We should arrest people for buying guns because it is illegal to shoot people

edit: unrelated to the reply, I had a dream last night about Z-day where Z-day was a conspiracy to deflect from patent reform

double edit: My metaphor is less than ideal on thinking about it. With the gun example it would be more like someone who has shot someone before buying a gun being arrested after buying another gun, but the point is I'm just not ready to judge the ethics of this particular case as unethical until they actually do something unethical regardless of how ethical they've been in the past.

This is coming from someone who does not hold Apple in especially high esteem also.
[/quote]Where am I suggesting that anyone at Apple should be arrested, or that what they should do is illegal? I mean, if we're talking about the law, my view is that software patents should not exist. But as you've said, we're not discussing the law - but what I am doing is saying it's fair game to blame someone. I guess in that analogy, if someone who had previously gone on a shooting spree was now again going to buy a gun, people such as myself would be criticising that guy.

Your original comment was that we shouldn't "blame people for taking full advantage of the system rather than the system". I'm not sure quite how your analogy fits with this, but if we try, it seems like if murder was legal, you'd say we shouldn't blame people murdering people - they're simply taking "full advantage of the system" and instead we should blame the system? I think that's a bit silly - of course it's fair game to blame and criticise people for their actions, even if it's legal. People get criticised and blamed for all sorts of reasons, and rightly so.

And if you don't think that, then I don't see how your analogy is relevant to what you were trying to say about Apple.

It isn't unreasonable to judge someone different based on past behaviour (indeed, people who commit gun crime surely do have restrictions on whether they are allowed to own a gun?) Sure, maybe Apple's reasons for getting this patent are completely different to their past reasons, and now they're going to campaign against the system of patents, and show how ludicrous they are. But I'm not holding my breath. Try telling that to the people still waiting for their Samsung Galaxy Tabs.

Where am I suggesting that anyone at Apple should be arrested, or that what they should do is illegal? I mean, if we're talking about the law, my view is that software patents should not exist. But as you've said, we're not discussing the law - but what I am doing is saying it's fair game to blame someone. I guess in that analogy, if someone who had previously gone on a shooting spree was now again going to buy a gun, people such as myself would be criticising that guy.

You are reading way too far into the metaphor. There's no reason to think similar concepts of our legal system don't extend into what society finds moral or ethical. "Innocent until proven guilty," or at the very least hearing both sides of the story before passing judgement is something that's very important to my moral beliefs.

Your original comment was that we shouldn't "blame people for taking full advantage of the system rather than the system". I'm not sure quite how your analogy fits with this, but if we try, it seems like if murder was legal, you'd say we shouldn't blame people murdering people - they're simply taking "full advantage of the system" and instead we should blame the system? I think that's a bit silly - of course it's fair game to blame and criticise people for their actions, even if it's legal. People get criticised and blamed for all sorts of reasons, and rightly so.[/quote]
I would think the system would be majorly to blame for allowing murders in your analogy. To think otherwise is folly.

As game developers we should empathize completely with the situation. Every day we set up competitive systems and we have to balance them to keep the playing field fair for our players. It's the same thing as this. We have a bunch of competitive players who will use the rules put forth to their full advantage to win the game. Should we be upset because players know the rules intimately and use them to win or should we reevaluate and tune the game?

It isn't unreasonable to judge someone different based on past behaviour (indeed, people who commit gun crime surely do have restrictions on whether they are allowed to own a gun?) Sure, maybe Apple's reasons for getting this patent are completely different to their past reasons, and now they're going to campaign against the system of patents, and show how ludicrous they are. But I'm not holding my breath. Try telling that to the people still waiting for their Samsung Galaxy Tabs.
[/quote]
Maybe that's where we're different. You find judging people when you don't have the full story reasonable and I do not.