As usually, ApocPiQ was harsh. But as usually, the info was there in the post. Garnish is nothing, info is everything. We are (or should be) grown up men and women after all.

(And as usually, my post was a "thank you, you can sit down now" post....)

Replying to both Apoch and Phantom here, as replying to individual points will get messy, fast. Sorry guys, I know you aren't the same person and have acted differently in this thread, but I think my main point here is that you're moderators, and I expect better, for which it's easier to lump you together.



Honestly, the problem is that you appeared to enjoy criticising. You clearly spent considerable time and effort on your criticism, and it seemed to me that you were motivated more by the enjoyment than the help you were giving. I think the sheer volume of criticism, some of it (but certainly not all, I agree) on topics where the OP had not solicited your advice, is what left a bad taste. If this guy is so undeserving of your attention, then I can only imagine that your motivation for continuing has to be either to put him down or to enjoy yourself. If his replies discourage you from helping, just stop replying. You're bigger than that. You don't have anything to prove by continuing to 'help'. Continuing to reply, but in a less friendly manner, doesn't really help anyone.

I think maybe the bits that came across as unnecessary to me were bits where you were actually trying to inject some humour to lighten the mood - well intentioned I'm sure, but when it's not clear whether you're laughing with or at somebody, it's wise to be careful.

I can be similar when writing code reviews - but I've learnt that it usually ends up with the advice being ignored because the person you're advising just doesn't trust you any more.

How did you manage to get a job without a portfolio?

In the UK, for graduate jobs in my experience, companies didn't really care about things like "portfolios". I talked about the personal projects I'd worked on, but they weren't interested in seeing actual demos or my own code - they were more interested in my academic qualifications, and setting their own tests at the interview. (And I did get a job offer at a games company.)

Honestly, the problem is that you appeared to enjoy criticising. You clearly spent considerable time and effort on your criticism, and it seemed to me that you were motivated more by the enjoyment than the help you were giving. I think the sheer volume of criticism, some of it (but certainly not all, I agree) on topics where the OP had not solicited your advice, is what left a bad taste. If this guy is so undeserving of your attention, then I can only imagine that your motivation for continuing has to be either to put him down or to enjoy yourself. If his replies discourage you from helping, just stop replying. You're bigger than that. You don't have anything to prove by continuing to 'help'. Continuing to reply, but in a less friendly manner, doesn't really help anyone.

Did you totally miss the part where I stopped responding after it became clear that the OP wasn't interested in the feedback I offered? I don't understand what you're reading into my posts here, but it's certainly nothing like what my intentions were. I specifically said at one point that I would stop critiquing the project, and I've stayed true to that. I only revisit the thread out of curiosity and interest in following the discussion.

Who says he's "undeserving of [our] attention" anyways? I've made a point of saying, over and over again, that there's some impressive accomplishments in here for a lone programmer, and I've gone out of my way to encourage him to continue working on the project. I remember specifically saying not to give up over the criticism.

My goal was to help the OP understand the limits of what he's done, and provide some possible avenues for furthering his skills as a programmer, beyond the scope of just realizing this particular project. I certainly do not come here to get my jollies by harassing people, if that's what you're trying to imply, and I rather resent that you continue to paint me with this brush with so little supporting evidence.

This thread is a wonderful demonstration of how far GDNet has fallen. Experienced posters try to help and they end up being the ones attacked. They're so outnumbered by idiots and beginners these days that threads spend the majority of their life discussing the tone of individual responses instead of the actual technical content contained therein.

Stay classy GameDev.

OK, my last post on this. It's really none of my business and I have better things to do, as I'm sure you all do.

Apoch - I think I've made it clear in absolutely all my posts that I don't think you intended to be nasty, but that I think appearances matter a great deal because moderators set the tone here. My intention was to point out that the tone appeared combative for no real reason, not paint you as a bad guy who only comes here to be a bully. I don't think anyone would dispute your technical knowledge or general helpfulness and active contribution to the site. I wanted to point out that I thought there was something amiss, and I've done so. If you disagree, that's fine. As part of my criticism of your criticism (heh) was the sheer volume of it, I'd be rather silly to belabour my own point. So I'll stop.

To clarify what I meant about being deserving of attention: Phantom suggested that his replies had grown more curt in response to the OP's tone - I took this to mean he felt the OP was less deserving of help than he had previously believed him to be. If he felt his help wasn't wanted or deserved (which I may well be misinterpreting) that's where I think he should have just stopped replying. I don't think there was anything for anyone to gain at that point beyond winning an argument, but I may be oblivious to whatever it is that motivates people to contribute so much to a forum, and so I concede that a less sinister motivation is more likely. It's perhaps not a very good use of anyone's time though. Speaking of which...

-moves away from keyboard

In the UK, for graduate jobs in my experience, companies didn't really care about things like "portfolios". I talked about the personal projects I'd worked on, but they weren't interested in seeing actual demos or my own code - they were more interested in my academic qualifications, and setting their own tests at the interview. (And I did get a job offer at a games company.)

Though I didn't really have a portfolio, after the initial introduction by a friend my 'break in' interview was largely the result of having a body of code online that they could look at. A quick glance suggested I probably wasn't a complete waste of time, so I got an interview. I think having something to show definitely helps.

3 years later, my only other games job interview (I was offered the job, but didn't take it) was largely just tech talk. Both had technical tests, but neither were really concerned with academic qualifications. They definitely help though. I'm sure that without being introduced by a friend in the first case, and having a couple of games to point to in the second, my academic qualifications would have mattered more to them.

I think portfolios are much more important if you're applying for a specialist role, but I was always a general dogsbody coder.

To clarify what I meant about being deserving of attention: Phantom suggested that his replies had grown more curt in response to the OP's tone - I took this to mean he felt the OP was less deserving of help than he had previously believed him to be. If he felt his help wasn't wanted or deserved (which I may well be misinterpreting) that's where I think he should have just stopped replying.

My replies will drop 'friendly' tone in many cases, however while I'm able to leave a thread alone (and have done so on my occasions on this site and others) I also have a stubon streak which means I will keep bashing people over the head with the same knowledge in the hope that some of it will get through and they will get of a bad path. (There is also a modulation applied to my replies depending on where the post is made, posting in the lounge will turn off a few internal filters). In fact I had become bored of this thread and was backing out when I suddenly came under attack from a few people, one of whom has a personal axe to grind (s'up Mikeman), and got dragged back in to defend myself.

I don't think there was anything for anyone to gain at that point beyond winning an argument,
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Pfft, it wasn't an arguement... arguement implies I could have been wrong... ;)

but I may be oblivious to whatever it is that motivates people to contribute so much to a forum, and so I concede that a less sinister motivation is more likely.
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As pointed out above my reason for posting is to help people out... I might do it with direct means but that's how I do it (since before I was a mod) and it works both on here and in real life, and judging by the net gain in rating over the course of this thread it would seem those who have a problem with it are in the minority *shrugs*

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong? If those who feel wronged can get a decent number of people to come forward who feel I should no longer be a moderator because of my posting style then I'll gladly step down... will of the community and all that...