Heyo! I was brainstorming some ideas, and was thinking about how to make player characters more personalized when it comes to MMOs. The main idea was to make gear with only the most basic (as in armor stat) stats, or not have any stats at all on the visual gear. As seen in many themeparks a lot of players greatly value cool looking items or items which fit their role, despite them being either low level or without stats at all, so called social clothing. The system could also be seen in such games as The Chronicles of Spellborn, or Champions Online where players were free to have any visual clothing, but developers instead put stats on non visible gadgets (rings, trinkets etc).

So to the discussion topic, how do you think that affects character progression and player - character bond? I see gear development stat wise as an important part of character progression, and the effort you put in it makes some kind of bond between you, character and items. However at the same time, I would be interested to promote players clothing in what suits their character without having to set class restrictions on items, but rather promoting players to RP with right items, because it is hard to avoid human nature of gearing for stats, not for the look when it comes to combat and majority of the players.

Any opinions on how would it be possible to promote social clothing, without the what I see as unrealistic solutions of for example Warhammer where they allow you to put any items visual on another items stats. Not the worst way to do it per se, but not really immersive. Or how to increase the bond with character and immersion without the gear part? There are such alternatives as skills of course, where a massive time is often invested, but people do like to show off, and gear is easiest way for doing so.

Heyo! I was brainstorming some ideas, and was thinking about how to make player characters more personalized when it comes to MMOs. The main idea was to make gear with only the most basic (as in armor stat) stats, or not have any stats at all on the visual gear. As seen in many themeparks a lot of players greatly value cool looking items or items which fit their role, despite them being either low level or without stats at all, so called social clothing. The system could also be seen in such games as The Chronicles of Spellborn, or Champions Online where players were free to have any visual clothing, but developers instead put stats on non visible gadgets (rings, trinkets etc).

So to the discussion topic, how do you think that affects character progression and player - character bond? I see gear development stat wise as an important part of character progression, and the effort you put in it makes some kind of bond between you, character and items. However at the same time, I would be interested to promote players clothing in what suits their character without having to set class restrictions on items, but rather promoting players to RP with right items, because it is hard to avoid human nature of gearing for stats, not for the look when it comes to combat and majority of the players.

Any opinions on how would it be possible to promote social clothing, without the what I see as unrealistic solutions of for example Warhammer where they allow you to put any items visual on another items stats. Not the worst way to do it per se, but not really immersive. Or how to increase the bond with character and immersion without the gear part? There are such alternatives as skills of course, where a massive time is often invested, but people do like to show off, and gear is easiest way for doing so.

My belief on the gear issue when it involves a competitive, PVP included, MMORPG is that gear shouldn't be a huge part of your character in that it should be destructible and not overly powerful. It should enhance your character, not define it. I feel that developers have gone in a direction that isn't good for the RPG world as it allows players to create things that don't exist inherently within the game. Don't like the look of something? Don't wear it. Love the look of something? Sacrifice for it. Have pros and cons for using gear, not just pros. If you base the quality of a player character on the player behind it and the decisions they make rather than primarily by the gear they wear, you are on the right track towards making a quality game.

Also the excessive use of BoE/BoP items stagnates game economies. You want items entering and leaving a market for it to continue to thrive. Supply and demand is a critical aspect of a functioning game economy.

BoE/BoP were designed to solve the issues with gold farmers. Yes it causes other problems, but until some out of game method of making them go away is found, it will probably just get worse, until open markets are lost and we simply get real money trade for in game items, or we have dual currency, so that any purchase costs you some kind of "experience" points (something that you can earn but not trade) as well as gold, which is only used for buying items from NPC vendors. The seller wont get any of your experience points, it will just be a system tax.

I think SWG was headed in the right direction with armour "cores" that the armoursmith uses during creation of armour. Prior to the Nerfed Game Experience there were also skill tapes which attached to armour for bonuses. I think something like this is the way, having a base armour stat that is quite low for each item, and then building it up with invisible extras. The current system most MMO's employ is simply based on the old D&D where the appearance of an item is all in the players head.

BoE/BoP were designed to solve the issues with gold farmers. Yes it causes other problems, but until some out of game method of making them go away is found, it will probably just get worse, until open markets are lost and we simply get real money trade for in game items, or we have dual currency, so that any purchase costs you some kind of "experience" points (something that you can earn but not trade) as well as gold, which is only used for buying items from NPC vendors. The seller wont get any of your experience points, it will just be a system tax.

I think SWG was headed in the right direction with armour "cores" that the armoursmith uses during creation of armour. Prior to the Nerfed Game Experience there were also skill tapes which attached to armour for bonuses. I think something like this is the way, having a base armour stat that is quite low for each item, and then building it up with invisible extras. The current system most MMO's employ is simply based on the old D&D where the appearance of an item is all in the players head.

Why does playing the game have to require large amounts of in-game money? WoW would have the issue with charging 1,000 gold for the advanced mounts, which would lead people to buy in-game money. Don't make things super expensive. I think UO had a good part in their market system where you had to replace your combat gear often enough to make you price conscience when setting out to fight. I am not laying claim to full-loot being the answer for anything beyond niche, hopefully successful ones, games. Full-loot wouldn't work in a "main stream" game, 100% understood. Gear breaking down through use is something I would aim for.

What I find to be an issue is people trying to live outside their means. New players to games need to be able to cope with the fact that someone that may have played the game for six years previous is on a different economic standing. Gold buying/selling is just obnoxious. Having currency be worthless isn't the answer either, so aim to make currency worthless to anyone who isn't rich in real life. Thus nothing necessary to compete(i.e. gear) should cost a fortune! Collectibles are an awesome part of a game design as it gives players meaning to their charades with potential for rich players being able to throw their inflated currency at. We want results, but why do they always have to be in the form of gear upgrades?

Hm, I am not quite sure I follow the topic change from social clothing to gold buying xD

However game economy is a problem with social clothing, which is why I was thinking on maybe adding stats to non visual items, which would still act as your typical gear. But if one chose not to do so, then another question arise, how to make interesting character progression without the usual constant joy delivery from gear updates a character receives. As I wrote in first post, skill progression is part of possible solution, but it feels character development needs more depth then just skill progression if you were to remove gear progression, any thoughts?

The system you mention, Blitzwing, is too an interesting alternative, being able to to update armor with "patches" or whatever, resulting in players actually being able to chose the look of gear they like and then apply certain stats to it. I do wonder if it wont end up with a bikini having uber stats on it (can be solved by item levle limits etc thou, but still)

Also, changed topic name.

BoP clothing could be a fun thing if there was a set to collect in each new area that wasn't too difficult to get. Another possibility is non-random drops (but then, I hate random drops in general). Example of non-random drops: a clothing set contains 6 items. All items are dropped by killing monster of type X in region Y, such as wolves in Spruce Hills. The third wolf (of any subtype) killed in this area drops the first gear of the set. The tenth wolf drops the second gear. Etc until the 50th wolf drops the last gear and the set is complete.

I do wonder if it wont end up with a bikini having uber stats on it

I don't think this should be considered a problem. But personally I prefer to not bind the stats to the item providing the appearance. This usually destroys the appearance of the item the stats were on, makes one's inventory confusing because you have to remember which gear has altered appearances on it, and is contrary to the collecting factor that I enjoy.

Hm, I am not quite sure I follow the topic change from social clothing to gold buying xD

However game economy is a problem with social clothing, which is why I was thinking on maybe adding stats to non visual items, which would still act as your typical gear. But if one chose not to do so, then another question arise, how to make interesting character progression without the usual constant joy delivery from gear updates a character receives. As I wrote in first post, skill progression is part of possible solution, but it feels character development needs more depth then just skill progression if you were to remove gear progression, any thoughts?

The system you mention, Blitzwing, is too an interesting alternative, being able to to update armor with "patches" or whatever, resulting in players actually being able to chose the look of gear they like and then apply certain stats to it. I do wonder if it wont end up with a bikini having uber stats on it (can be solved by item levle limits etc thou, but still)

Also, changed topic name.

Sorry, I didn't pay direct attention to social clothing. In that regard, Social clothing should be just that, social. It doesn't belong in combat unless you want to sacrifice your armor for it. People shouldn't be running around the woods fighting dragons wearing a tuxedo.

Thus, my stance is that social clothing should only give social benefits, not combat. Perhaps you can have work clothes that increase your crafting capabilities when worn?

All of my thoughts pertain to a fantasy setting MMORPG, even if they may have value outside of the intent.

My previous posts started off on gear progression and how much it should affect you, to altering the effects on the economy, but I will steer back towards your desired topic. The gold buying thing was supposed to be pertinent to the topic in that gear based progression can force a game to be very currency driven thus making some players more apt to purchase gold. Removing the reliance on abnormal amounts of currency to compete in general play is something I felt lessening the impact of gear on combat would help bring forth.

Sorry, I didn't pay direct attention to social clothing. In that regard, Social clothing should be just that, social. It doesn't belong in combat unless you want to sacrifice your armor for it. People shouldn't be running around the woods fighting dragons wearing a tuxedo.

Thus, my stance is that social clothing should only give social benefits, not combat. Perhaps you can have work clothes that increase your crafting capabilities when worn?

Yeah, that seems to be the general approach to armor. However I am quite big fan of Manga and Anime, where most characters are very unique dressed, the way they like it, which greatly improves their character depth. However, recreating similar system in a mmo seems to be quite difficult, which is why I mentioned Champions Online which combined best of the two worlds imho and was curious if there were any alternatives except for that. Seems not ^^

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[quote name='Cronnix' timestamp='1312344315' post='4843906']
I do wonder if it wont end up with a bikini having uber stats on it

I don't think this should be considered a problem. But personally I prefer to not bind the stats to the item providing the appearance. This usually destroys the appearance of the item the stats were on, makes one's inventory confusing because you have to remember which gear has altered appearances on it, and is contrary to the collecting factor that I enjoy.
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[/font][font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]True, I can see how confusing such a system would be :/[/font]

I like the idea of gear having no stats or only minor stats. Both Everquest and World of Warcraft had pretty big issues with mudflation where gear you wore quickly and utterly overpowered your character's underlying stats. With Everquest at least, even by the third or fourth expansion, there was no longer any point in customizing your character at game creation, they'd all have maxed out stats with current gear. WoW doesn't have max stats in the same way, but it still has a similar issue where your strength will be 5x higher in gear than without.

It all depends on your world of course, but I'd like to play a game that took a different approach. Why not have the gear provide nothing but utility and no stats by default? I.e. wearing regular clothing doesn't help reduce damage, leather armor reduces it a little, chain more so and plate even more. They don't in and of themselves make your character stronger or have more HP (which is still a bit of a WTF moment for me, how does the gear make you tougher in a way that's not represented by it's defensive qualities?). You'd have to balance the defensive qualities with something else though, or plate becomes the obvious choice for everyone, including mages and thieves. I would argue that having all gear provide the same armor level would be a bit much for me to accept as a player without heavy justification.

You might introduce quality levels and wear levels to differentiate a bit and give crafters something to do. Crude, low quality, average, high quality, master work, etc for quality, affecting weight and armor perhaps. Then you could have rusted gear, damaged gear, unmaintained gear, etc with similar effects. Allow players to upgrade the quality level and repair any wear.

Any stats that were provided by the gear would come from enchantments (which is presumably why a piece of gear would give +10 strength in the first place, unless it's powered armor or something). So you could enchant a chain bikini to give +10 strength or you could enchant a steel cuirass to give +10 strength, the underlying gear wouldn't matter. Allow players to add, remove or swap enchantments, and they the can do whatever they want with their gear.

Any gear found in the field (taken from a dead bandit, looted from an armor stand in a crypt or taken from a dragon's hoard, whatever) would have either fixed or random combinations of quality, wear and enchantment, but if players really want a specific piece of gear to have any stats, they can fix the gear up and reenchant it.

The issue then becomes how do you encourage players to go to new places and get the gear there? By providing new looking stuff those that are interested in that sort of thing will go get it. You could also provide new types of enchantment, but you'd have to be careful about mudflation here too. You could possibly focus on things other than gear progression. That doesn't really exist in real life for example. There's really only quality and wear in real life (rolling things like construction technique and materials into the quality level). I've always viewed individual character development much more highly than gear progression. Give players things to chase other than the goal of having 10K armor or 100K HP. Real people generally fought and risked their lives for something other than the sword of dragonslaying, such as fame, wealth, duty, or a higher purpose.

That's a whole new ballgame of course, and every player wants different things, and you can't possibly hope to provide everything.