It's probably off topic to focus on this.... but I'm not fully sure what the topic even is anymore, so here I go.

This type of talk:

[color=#1C2837][size=2]The government tells you what drugs to do because drugs ruin lives and waste potential. Look at your average stoner. They insist vehemently that weed has no bad points, isn't addictive and would single-handedly save the economy- facts be damned. They usually say all this at 3pm on a Tuesday in their parents garage.

has no substance. Many "stoners" that I know are successful financially, don't think legalization is a silver bullet for the economy, and fully acknowledge both pros & cons to the drug. Their lives are not ruined, and some of them would say that weed (among many other factors) helped them to realize their potential.

If you don't know much about something, please refrain from spewing nonsense about it. There's too much regurgitating of nonsense going around these days -- it inhibits real discovery and learning about topics.

Ontopic: Now that one (and only one) of the Credit Ratings board downgraded the US does that mean that Wall Street will panic and put us in an artificial recession?

Actually, the one thing that the credit rating should affect according to orthodox theories is yields of US Treasuries. But take a look at the actual numbers straight from the Treasury. The yields are the effective interest rate somebody buying treasuries today would get over the life-time of the paper. One of the basic orthodox tenets is that insecure debt should have higher yields. So what is happening in practice?

Short-term yields (i.e. yields on treasuries that are paid back after a short time) had a small spike on Monday, but fell again on Tuesday.

Long-term yields were actually at a temporary high on Friday, before the rating change was announced. They have since dropped on both Monday and Tuesday, to even lower than they were before the temporary spike on Friday.

This is exactly the opposite of what mainstream economists say should happen, but it is perfectly consistent with the views of Modern Monetary Theory. In a fiat money system, the monetarily sovereign government is clearly in charge, and the financial markets are at its mercy.

The point is they were selling milk that wasn't pasteurized

Yes, that's why people joined their ->private<- co-opt. The point is that the government is going to lose in the courts, the business is going to lose because of debt, the lawyers are going to rake in the money and the big agro-monopoly is going to get more customers. Really, isn't this just the American dream?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. This used to mean something.

Do you understand what that is, what it does, and what it actually means to the chances of having a 'bad load'? It has zero to do with what some other company may or may not be doing.

I looked it up and from what I've seen our government went after these private businesses without one report of illness or injury from consumption of their product. From what I've read they both have stellar records. I can guarantee the big companies can't say the same. Their little sticker means about as much as their massive bottom line, the price of a insignificant fine and the scared inspector who's afraid of thousand of workers calling their elected officials if the place is shut down.

Would you want the chef at your favourite restaurant to be going to the bathroom, and not washing his hands before preparing your meal?

This is a false analogy. These are private businesses and people joined specifically so they could get raw milk. (And now, in the case of Rawesome food, the owners are being held on bails in excess of $100,000 and are each charged with four felonies and several misdemeanors...And they didn't hurt anyone)

I grew up in a dairy town, and drank unpasteurized milk fairly often as a kid. One time I spent half a week puking my guts out,... due to drinking unpasteurized milk that had been contaminated

Did the company lie to you and tell you the milk was pasteurized? Were you unaware of what pasteurizing is? Did you know there was a chance you could get sick? What were the conditions like at the place you bought/consumed this milk? Is there a chance you could have gotten sick from something besides the milk? Is the entire raw milk industry to blame? Did you(Parents/family) report the business to the authorities for poisoning you? Did you(Parents/family) sue them for poisoning you? Assuming you're American, did our government prevent you(Parents/family) from buying a product(over the counter) that could have fixed this problem day one? Did this illness improve your immune system and make you a healthier person? How is this any different then drinking milk from a big agro-monopoly and getting sick?

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I have nonstop sex in degenerate places all the time. Have for most of my life. One night I had sex with three whores, frenched a maid, donkey and what appeared to be a maid donkey(I'm drunk in this fictional analogy ). I then had sex with an Asian girl. The next day I got lung herpes....All Asian women carry lung herpes and should be quarantined and put off limits.

[quote name='Jacob Jingle' timestamp='1312906041' post='4846752']
[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1312898002' post='4846674']That's fairly vague. What did they get arrested for?

Feds sting Amish farmer selling raw milk locally
Raw Food Co-op Is Raided in California
[/quote]
They didn't arrest either of them. o.O
[/quote]
Owners of Rawesome food are being held on bails in excess of $122,000 and are each charged with four felonies and several more misdemeanors. Their bail is over 300% larger than the bail typically set for murderers. Again, these are just two random links of two random cases that I got from Google. There are a lot more then just these two cases. (Thx Obama(Bush Jr's son))

[quote name='Luckless' timestamp='1312931356' post='4846947']I grew up in a dairy town, and drank unpasteurized milk fairly often as a kid. One time I spent half a week puking my guts out,... due to drinking unpasteurized milk that had been contaminated

Did the company lie to you and tell you the milk was pasteurized? Were you unaware of what pasteurizing is? Did you know there was a chance you could get sick? What were the conditions like at the place you bought/consumed this milk? Is there a chance you could have gotten sick from something besides the milk? Is the entire raw milk industry to blame? Did you(Parents/family) report the business to the authorities for poisoning you? Did you(Parents/family) sue them for poisoning you? Assuming you're American, did our government prevent you(Parents/family) from buying a product(over the counter) that could have fixed this problem day one? Did this illness improve your immune system and make you a healthier person? How is this any different then drinking milk from a big agro-monopoly and getting sick?
[/quote]

I was well aware it was unpasteurized. After all it is very hard to have it pasteurized between the time you personally hand milk the cow, and the time you drink it right from the bucket moments later. (A not only clean bucket, but a freshly sterilized one.)

The farm in question? One of the highest rated in New Brunswick, with the most advanced and up to date practices. (My father worked for the Department of Agriculture so I grew up around a huge number of farms.) I can't remember the name of the contamination, but it was bacterial and traced back to the cow I had milked earlier in the week. This wasn't a contamination from poor practice, or a mistake, but a mildly sick cow that had not as yet shown any visible issues.

The government here doesn't prevent me from buying the product that could have fixed this problem from day one, they actually require me to buy it. Pasteurized milk.

This is the reason why raw milk is dangerous. It is a risk, as an apparently perfectly healthy and happy cow can be supplying tainted milk due to a minor issue. That tainted milk then taints the storage and processing equipment, which then taints the rest of the supply connected to that one animal. Pasteurizing takes the contamination lines from all those earlier points and cuts them all off before further processing. This cuts the risk by a huge margin.

If you want unpasteurized milk, then buy yourself a cow and have at it. It offers no health benefits, and the only additions are completely unnecessary risks.

I was well aware it was unpasteurized. After all it is very hard to have it pasteurized between the time you personally hand milk the cow, and the time you drink it right from the bucket moments later. (A not only clean bucket, but a freshly sterilized one.)

I only asked because in your story you said you were a kid. I would hate to think that a farm cut your family out of the mix and deceived you into taking that risk.

The government here doesn't prevent me from buying the product that could have fixed this problem from day one, they actually require me to buy it. Pasteurized milk.

A) I only ask because I couldn't understand why your parents would let you suffer violently throwing up for most of a week. I figured your family was poor, nothing to be ashamed of, and couldn't afford to go to the hospital and get prescription meds.
B) So you knowingly made a bad choice(with the permission of your parents), you only have your self to blame and now you want to take the choice from everyone, do I have it right?

This is the reason why raw milk is dangerous.{...}. This cuts the risk by a huge margin.

This was never in argument. (Hint: What people want to do with their bodies is their own business)

If you want unpasteurized milk, then buy yourself a cow and have at it. It offers no health benefits, and the only additions are completely unnecessary risks.

A) The people that drink it feel that it does offer health benefits.
B) Are you also advocating for prohibition? Because drinking alcohol also adds a lot of unnecessary risk.
C) I don't like raw milk, but I imagine the people who want it will still find a way to get it....And if they're forced to do something extreme, like order it from one of our 3rd world American investments, it will probably drive those risk through the roof. Smallpox anyone? (Of course the people who have had cow pox will most likely be immune, does that count as a health benefit? )

A) I only ask because I couldn't understand why your parents would let you suffer violently throwing up for most of a week. I figured your family was poor, nothing to be ashamed of, and couldn't afford to go to the hospital and get prescription meds.
B) So you knowingly made a bad choice(with the permission of your parents), you only have your self to blame and now you want to take the choice from everyone, do I have it right?

food poisoning isn't a, "take this and feel better," kind of illness. It's a, "stay hydrated because you are going to be puking for a while," illness.

[quote name='Jacob Jingle' timestamp='1312997667' post='4847248']
A) I only ask because I couldn't understand why your parents would let you suffer violently throwing up for most of a week. I figured your family was poor, nothing to be ashamed of, and couldn't afford to go to the hospital and get prescription meds.
B) So you knowingly made a bad choice(with the permission of your parents), you only have your self to blame and now you want to take the choice from everyone, do I have it right?

food poisoning isn't a, "take this and feel better," kind of illness. It's a, "stay hydrated because you are going to be puking for a while," illness.
[/quote]
Been there. Slept 36 hours before. Not worth it. I think Jacob is just playing the devil's advocate anyway. Some people are very serious about their milk.

This is exactly the opposite of what mainstream economists say should happen, but it is perfectly consistent with the views of Modern Monetary Theory. In a fiat money system, the monetarily sovereign government is clearly in charge, and the financial markets are at its mercy.

It's actually what mainstream economists would expect. This isn't the Fed messing with bonds (QE2 is over), it's fear in the market.

The government tells you what [s]drugs[/s] videogames [s] [/s]to do because [s]drugs[/s] videogames ruin lives and waste potential. Look at your average [s]stoner[/s] gamer. They insist vehemently that [s]weed[/s] WoW has no bad points, isn't addictive and would single-handedly save the economy- facts be damned. They usually say all this at 3pm on a Tuesday in their parents [s]garage[/s] basement. Don't even start talking about [s]Heroin[/s] GTA, [s]Cocaine[/s] CoD et alii. If you were talking about [s]prescription drugs[/s] wii games then, well, yeah. Same thing except in certain cases it's ok because they have good qualities as well and have been through testing and safety controls to make sure they have as much good, and as little bad, as possible.

There you go, I fixed it for you.

Equally ignorant.