I've been tinkering about ways to make my current project a bit more satisfying.
Specifically, I want to turn certain tropes of jRPG game design into something slightly different to make it feel fresh while ensuring people aren't lost (jRPGs fans expect things from their jRPGs after all).

One of the things I've started working on is turning the usual shop keepers into localized and more vibrant services.

A clean example of that would be the smiths. Rather than a weapon shop, I have a limited amount of smiths that will forge materials you bring them into something, for a price.
While this "looks" like a shop gameplaywise (turn some items/gold into something else) the approach is slightly different, and I believe it does give a better feeling of what it needs to achieve.
I believe I just didn't like the idea that any weapons' merchant would stand there idle all day with 10000 swords behind the counter, just in case a few heroes might come in.

The focus is not to rationalize the gameplay, but to give it some flavor.

Now, the Swordsmith was a very easy one, and I'm looking for other services that I could incorporate into the game that would make sense...

For example:
- Transportation (rather than warping between warp-points ala Castlevania)
- Healing (rather than an inn and antidotes) * This was present in certain jRPGs but I always felt it lacked something (Lufia I, 7th Saga)
etc.

Any thoughts? Criticism?

Well there's nothing wrong with the systems, but it's something common in a lot of RPGs. Look at the Witcher or something like that and you see crafting services available as well as standard shops. It makes for a more believable world if done right, as those are the kind of people that would exist and would have services to offer. Having said that, I think there is a place for shops as well. It's not like shops are immersion-breakers because you never see them in real life, so don't discount them just because they're commonplace, look at your project and decide whether they work in the context of your game design. You might want to feature both shops and services...and if you want to break tropes try messing around with the elements that you already have in different ways. Consider things like price fluctuations in shops/services depending on location, or availability of items, or some other variable.

Oh, and finally: there is no such genre as jRPG

I agree, the idea is not a 'ground-breaking new' idea, nor is the project in which I'm attempting to put it. But I'm looking at clever ways to exploit this system so that:
1 - I minimize the actual non-gameplay aspect of it (I don't want it to become overly complex because I feel it will substract from the added quality)
2 - Give the player the feeling that 'we care' about this aspect of gameplay as well.

I'd have to look at witcher a second time because I'm not sure I remember that (I didn't beat the game, but I did play some substancial amount of time...)

I agree also that there should be shops, for example, a large portion of my project's economy revolves around the potions. I'm using a dragon quest approach where buying a potion is something that matters a great deal earl y in game (buying 5 potions or that uber gear piece?)

I really want to avoid price fluctuations and the likes. While I agree this can have an impact on suspension of disbelief, this may negatively impact the game balance I'm trying to establish, and since this is a single player experience, I want to have a certain control over what happens, in what order more or less (while keeping plenty already opened up for the player to choose from). Also, I feel like price fluctuations can be frustrating, especially if a player sets himself a goal to reach a certain amount of money to buy a certain piece of equipment only to find that it now costs 50 gold pieces. The reason why this could get even worse in my game is that the monster's gold drops will be impressively small (very often 0) and gold will mostly be found in optional dungeons and the likes.
On the other hand, if you meant fluctuation of prices based on geographical locations (which I believe you are) this may not be that interesting as it would only force the player to choose either to pay more or backtrack significantly to get the former price. I agree this could work in some types of games, but I don't see it happening in this game.
Besides, like I said, I'm not seeking to complexify the mechanic, only revitalize them marginally.

as for jRPG, it remains, to this day, the easiest and shortest acronym I can use to refer to snes-era rpgs largely governed by storyline.
However, as you state, the appelation is erroneous. Yet, I believe most people get a relatively 'ok' understanding of what I'm shooting for, without requiring to type down game examples.
If not, in the interest of avoiding confusion, the project will be similar to games like Chrono Trigger, Dragon Quest (NES era), Final Fantasy (1-6), etc.

Do you have any services in mind? I know Skyrim seeks to re-implement Item Enchanting and I always felt like this could be fun to tinker with...

[color="#1C2837"]I'd have to look at witcher a second time because I'm not sure I remember that (I didn't beat the game, but I did play some substancial amount of time...)

I agree also that there should be shops, for example, a large portion of my project's economy revolves around the potions. I'm using a dragon quest approach where buying apotion is something that matters a great deal earl y in game (buying 5 potions or that uber gear piece?)[/quote]

Well, Witcher 2. I never played the original.

[color="#1C2837"]1 - I minimize the actual non-gameplay aspect of it (I don't want it to become overly complex because I feel it will substract from the added quality)
[color="#1C2837"]2 - Give the player the feeling that 'we care' about this aspect of gameplay as well.[/quote]

Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by these?

[color="#1C2837"]On the other hand, if you meant fluctuation of prices based on geographical locations (which I believe you are) this may not be that interesting as it would only force the player to choose either to pay more or backtrack significantly to get the former price. I agree this could work in some types of games, but I don't see it happening in this game.[/quote]

I was thinking both really. But you're right, it wasn't an idea I really thought through. If you don't want "Weapons Shop" etc in the game, why not allow the player to trade weapons materials, MMO style? So certain stores sell cotton and fabrics etc, you can barter for or buy these with monster loot, and use these plus more monster loot to take to your services and have your weapons crafted.

[color=#1C2837][size=2]Do you have any services in mind? I know Skyrim seeks to re-implement Item Enchanting and I always felt like this could be fun to tinker with... [/quote]

Er... everything I can think of just boils down to a form of crafting!

[color="#1C2837"]as for jRPG, it remains, to this day, the easiest and shortest acronym I can use to refer to snes-era rpgs largely governed by storyline.
[color="#1C2837"]However, as you state, the appelation is erroneous. Yet, I believe most people get a relatively 'ok' understanding of what I'm shooting for, without requiring to type down game examples.[/quote]

That's one of a thousand different definitions I've heard for JRPG. Notice when you see it used as a genre label in the games press, it usually carries negative connotations. So when 1UP.com or Bioware criticizes a game like Final Fantasy, they use the term JRPG which to a lot of people will lump in everything from Kingdom Hearts to Valkyria Chronicles. I understand the convenience of it but to me, JRPG = Japanese RPG industry (which is the accurate usage of the term), and that includes things like Demon's Souls as well. Also, as a game designer and somebody with aspirations to work in the industry, using incorrect/misleading vocabulary when talking about games is, I'd imagine, bad practice

This seems to me like the shops would be replaced by side quests. Bring me this and that and I'll forge you a Sword of Doom. You could apply the same principles to the rest of the shops. Bring some rare materials only found in dangerous places and they will craft you appropriate items for you like potions, scrolls of teleportation and a bunch of other stuff.

The downside of this is you lose the simplicity of gold. With gold, you have a simple wealth acquisition mechanism. With components, you need to fetch the appropriate components and if you can't find the one you need, even though you have tons of others, you can't progress. You could always fix that with a marketplace that buys and sells common components, but all that did was introduce inventory management and an extra step. You would need to have good gameplay mechanics relying on this system or the added complexity won't be appreciated.

A store to buy local maps or guidebooks?

Could you hire people to add to your party?
Guards
Cargo Carriers
Hire additional people to help fight your battles or help carry your stuff.

Maybe, what if you're auto-mapping function was performed by a cartographer you enlist to your party. If he dies then you're limited to the map you currently have. Or enlist a guide that would enable compass markers that points you towards destinations, or maybe he informs you of points of interest, or maybe identifies local threats.

If you're going to do this, I would suggest that you keep hard currency (gold or an equivalent), and have some sort of dynamic supply for components and so forth. It doesn't have to be much of a system, but a city should have some stores of things that people are willing to trade for cash or other things rather than force every shopper to gather every piece every time.

So if you go to a blacksmith, he will need to have certain components to do what you want, but he can place an order for them at X cost. Then allow game time for delivery and work, and you have your item, still purchased with money, but not one that you had to gather yourself from questing. The player need not deal with the marketplace at all, leaving the details to the shopkeeper.

If you want, you can have game events affect the stocks/cost of components and therefore items, which could be interesting without having to deal with full-on dynamic pricing. This could be implemented fairly easily at the regional level I think, and being tied with game events would make it feel more natural or at least understandable.

The player can also gather stuff if they want, saving money but not time, maybe with some bartering system or something too.

I can understand not wanting to get too complex with everything, and I can appreciate that you're not going for a realism-only approach. But replacing a simple mechanism (the shop trope, arbitrary though it is) with required side-questing only to get routine consumables and the obligatory better equipment isn't flavor or revitalization. It's not fun for everyone (MMO people seem to like it well enough), it's an artificial game time extender, and it's either going to be a huge hassle (components are rare) or irrelevant (components are abundant).

Your current trajectory seems to me to be an attempt to add all possible tedium to the process of shopping in-game and avoid all elements that might make it interesting or worthwhile. As tiblanc said, it's nothing more than extra steps to a process that players will expect to be painless and intuitive. It's not that the mechanic couldn't work. Perhaps the overall game design would work splendidly with the system. But as presented, this seems like a game that I absolutely would not play.

@ Fox

1 - I minimize the actual non-gameplay aspect of it (I don't want it to become overly complex because I feel it will substract from the added quality)
2 - Give the player the feeling that 'we care' about this aspect of gameplay as well.Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by these?
[/quote]

What I mean is that I am not interested in making something so complex it is actually a core part of the gameplay. I just want a subtle system that will add to it slightly. Ideas such as price fluctuations are a big deal because they radically matter to how the player will interact with the game. They will actually have to backtrack which may not have been part of the design previously. The consequences of the system should be minimal outside of its own. It shouldn't be strictly aesthetics, but it should feel like polish, not design (the game is already pretty much designed at this stage).

That's one of a thousand different definitions I've heard for JRPG. Notice when you see it used as a genre label in the games press, it usually carries negative connotations. So when 1UP.com or Bioware criticizes a game like Final Fantasy, they use the term JRPG which to a lot of people will lump in everything from Kingdom Hearts to Valkyria Chronicles. I understand the convenience of it but to me, JRPG = Japanese RPG industry (which is the accurate usage of the term), and that includes things like Demon's Souls as well. Also, as a game designer and somebody with aspirations to work in the industry, using incorrect/misleading vocabulary when talking about games is, I'd imagine, bad practice
[/quote]

Actually, as you might already know, I have been in the industry for some time (in two different studios, one of which was Ubisoft). As a video game project coordinator, I get to hear the appelation jrps from pretty much everyone around me and all of the people I've been discussing with for the last couple years seemed to agree on the concept, which is why I'm always a bit surprised when it makes you go haywire ;)
With that said, I have agreed that the term is far too broad and generic, but it does get the job done. Besides, the mechanic I'm looking for could fit in pretty much any type of RPG, so the restriction is not trivial.


@Tiblanc

This seems to me like the shops would be replaced by side quests. Bring me this and that and I'll forge you a Sword of Doom. You could apply the same principles to the rest of the shops. Bring some rare materials only found in dangerous places and they will craft you appropriate items for you like potions, scrolls of teleportation and a bunch of other stuff.

The downside of this is you lose the simplicity of gold. With gold, you have a simple wealth acquisition mechanism. With components, you need to fetch the appropriate components and if you can't find the one you need, even though you have tons of others, you can't progress. You could always fix that with a marketplace that buys and sells common components, but all that did was introduce inventory management and an extra step. You would need to have good gameplay mechanics relying on this system or the added complexity won't be appreciated.
[/quote]

This is pretty much what the smith was there for: introducing components (though there is a gold fee, and low/mid quality components can be bought). Besides, low-tech gear would still be in his arsenal to be bought straight through gold, the idea is to depict somewhat of a real smith. If you're going on a quest and you visit the smith, he's got all the 'common' weapons laying around (axe, swords, daggers, shields, etc). But what if you're beyond that? You're after some magical evil and have stumbled upon a cache of adamandite rock, what about some kickass custom armor?
Like I have stated, I want to keep the system was simple and subtle as possible, not every weapon in-game will be forged, this will probably represent the late-tier of gear only. The system will always be there, but you will only really start to benefit from it when you start finding these components in caves, monster drops, etc.


@kseh
While I like the general idea, I don't think it can be implemented as is, and the reason is this: I think accessibility features of a product should be a given. I'm not too fond of the idea that, for example, a player's combat UI wouldn't be displayed unless you had purchased an upgrade. I'm exaggerating here as, obviously, the combat would need the UI in order to work, and this is a core component of the game whereas the map is an add-on, but you get the idea.
The way I think the idea could work is if I had a Map system, and I could simply buy map locations which would be revealed on the map even before I got there.
Unfortunately, I neither have a mini-map system planned at this stage (though I feel that it may increase accessibility to the product) and yet, I feel like this would reduce the incentive to explore, which I'm currently basing my project of.
So all in all, a good idea, but impractical given my design.

The idea of guidebooks got me interested though. What were you specifically referring to? Did you mean 'map' books, or 'guides to something'?
Since my project is to have certain sidequests, I wouldn't be against the idea of having 'narrative maps' which aren't drawn but told. For example "...I went by the river X and followed it north for a few (unit of time). I was attacked by a band of orcs and barely survived. I escaped on a raft to the other shore and landed in a (insert level name)".
The reading layer might or might not get it, and he may or may not choose to go there, but if he does, something of value could be there, or the 'end of the story' so to speak.
I just find it odd that such 'useful books' could just get sold at a shop, whereas I feel it could belong in a dusty library. It kind of makes me think about how they decided to search for certain archeological locations that were supposed to be myths and turned out to have some truth to them.
I might work on this one

@Khaiy

As I said, I'm only looking to make the third tier the 'optional search for components'. The initial idea was to ensure that 'kickass gear' would feel kickass. The Master Sword in Zelda wouldn't be so epic if it could be bought for 9999 rupees. It is the fact you get it from the forest. Arguably, I could just hide weapons here and there in the levels themselves, but I felt like, since this is the first chapter of the story, and that there are 'no ancient times' to harness these weapons from, they would rather need to be handcrafted by someone (an 'epic' npc smith). Also, I really wanted to tackle with Warren Spector's idea of memorable areas. I wanted to build fewer cities that meant more to the player, and I felt that putting fewer epic npcs around which the action and gameplay revolved would help accomplishing that goal.

I like the idea of giving the player the choice between "grinding for the component" (in this case, sidequesting) and paying more money, but I feel like grinding for sidequests is the lesser evil here (grinding for money through killing foes is generally frowned upon).
Also, the idea is not to gate content that is 'stricly better' in the gear progression by forcing sidequesting, but to gate content that is 'more complex'.
A "fire sword" made of fire components would not necessarily inflict more damage than a regular sword, but it would inflict 'burning status' instead, which may reveal to be particularly effective in certain areas of the game, and completely useless at others where a more traditional sword would probably be better. It allows the player to specialize, forge a strategy, etc.

With that said, I read you, and I see that my system has its faults.

Your current trajectory seems to me to be an attempt to add all possible tedium to the process of shopping in-game and avoid all elements that might make it interesting or worthwhile. As tiblanc said, it's nothing more than extra steps to a process that players will expect to be painless and intuitive. It's not that the mechanic couldn't work. Perhaps the overall game design would work splendidly with the system. But as presented, this seems like a game that I absolutely would not play.
[/quote]

There's probably a bit of both: I haven't explained the core gameplay elements of the game, and yet, there are severe flaws in the design that may need to be assessed.
While I concur there are problems, I'm currently looking to flesh out the service ideas I can get, and will attend to the defects through polishing afterwards. This is an 'idea collecting' step for me so to speak, to see in which direction I could gear the project.

Thanks for your comments, it is very appreciated guys.

The idea of guidebooks got me interested though. What were you specifically referring to? Did you mean 'map' books, or 'guides to something'?[/quote]

I was thinking along the lines of a person to add to your party that would either be able to direct you to specific points of interest or would be able to inform you if you were near one (or near a particular danger). Kinda like a tour guide. Loss of such a tour guide due to combat or some reason would leave the player with their own wits to safely find what they're looking for.

Alternatively, you could have it that you go to some equivalent of a tourist information booth and buy something that enables a map, reveals points of interest, or gives some textual background on an area. Depending on how you present it, I could see it either just feeling like a tedious tacked on extra step to get where you need to go or it could be a way of immersing a player into the background story of the world.

I'm not sure it would work with my party system, and I feel the booth idea a bit too narrow, but I think there's something there...
Do you remember the 'demon' in symphony of the night (castlevania)?
If there was a switch nearby, he'd just say "ah a switch" and move towards it.