Respectfully, I don't know of any true blue libertarian who believes that a person should be able to poison people, much less kids.

BTW, what about the mercury that's in those new bulbs. How many kids are going to end up being poisoned by them?

I chose three of the most absurd examples I could think of.

Yet you fell for it, hook, bait and sink. And I didn't even intend that.


This is what all these movements and ideologies are. Bike sheds. People arguing over the most trivial and pointless cases. Usually in first world, comfy in middle class, while sipping SB Latte in an airconditioned room on an Apple computer. Meanwhile, change happens when someone sets themselves on fire and government falls.


Change requires martyrs and victims. Not slacktivists.


On gamedev topic (SPOILERS):
In Deus Ex 2, the big revelation is that powers that be created multiple factions (PeeQuads and QueeQugs... or somesuch) and fuel the rivalry between them via media. Goal was just that - distraction. People love to have bike shed arguments.

And, since like in above example, the subtlety may be lost on some - this is what the world is today. Same powers that be (not Illuminati, real world isn't that dramatic) create artificial conflict to make sure public is busy enough arguing over non-issues, while the world is going to hell in breadbasket.

I see, so in your world kids go around eatting light bulbs?

No, but they do knock over lamps...which throws the crap everywhere. Plus there have been studies that have shown that just turning on the lights gives off poisonous cancer causing material. (And let's not forget about Asia's history of throwing in other chemicals(waste) into their products(TVs) to get rid of them)

Our government, which is the worst kind of monopoly because it has a monopoly on force, loves to warp and distort our free market by doing things like this...And it seems to always blow up in our face down the road. Look at our current Fannie and Freddie housing debacle with countries(US, etc) dumping hundreds of billion into our housing market and making the mess a thousand times worse. Look at the regulations that drove the mom and pop companies under and gave us all these poorly run too big to fail companies. Etc.

In that case what about all the house hold chemicals which they could also get a hold of?

I don't have kids, but if I did I would encourage them to eat all of it....That's the only way the little bastards will learn.

I see, so in your world kids go around eatting light bulbs?[/quote]

No, but they do knock over lamps[/quote]
Yea the issue is tiny bits of mercury screw up kids. If you search about it it will tell you about certain cases. I broke a mercury cfl and went nuts cuz I had heard how bad they were and it was like "leave immediately for 15-30 minutes. Shut off your air conditioning. You cant use a broom. And you should use duct tape all over your floor." People break bulbs it just happens.

As for chemicals. I never ever thought to drink a poisonous chemical accidently or for a joke with others. Kids know those are serious things. Lightbulbs on the other hand are well just lightbulbs. Unless you educate kids about if one breaks, then they appear harmless.

Perhaps you've not met someone who's been overweight from childhood, but this girls life is completely different now.[/quote]
Every one of my friends suprisingly was fat or really fat, and I was like the skiniest dude in my school. And most of them are still fat when they leave their parents house. Look its a problem, but stealing kids? Where are we going to put them? We don't have money for prisons, let alone millions of obese kids. We would have to borrow more money to build facilities. And what percentage of body fat or weight does it have to be? If you go over a pound then your fined, over 5 pounds and your fined and kids taken away? Its just too much bureaucracy. Should we require obese people not to have kids then and just prevent the whole thing? With the government it would never stop. Its all about control. The government controls SO much more than listed in those, or is trying to pass so much more.

Pretty soon the trend is going to be that an official study came out and violent videogames make kids murderers, so you have to let the gov't randomly come into your house to see what your kids are playing to make sure they are playing looney tunes, and if not, then they will snatch your kids.

OP's post is kind of all over the place,

<This is America specific> Because our government is everywhere. There isn't one thing in our life that our government doesn't have a hand in.

The government is not "telling people what to buy"]

<This is America specific> So I(for sake of example) can go to a store without a prescription and buy Vicodin or Mary Jane for a bad back? Flumadine for the flu? I can buy the old mercury free light bulbs at Wally World? I can start up a business and become a cabbie without a cabbie's license? I can ride a motorcycle without a helmet? I can beg people for money without a beggar's license? If I wanted to I could add a room on to my house with getting a builder's permit? My government hasn't taken my money and bought people cars? It isn't heavily invested in companies like Microsoft and Google?

I don't know about you, but my government is involved in everything(from toilets to health care) and is in fact limiting my options and telling me what to buy.

The people who refuse to acknowledge this are the right-wing folks who go crazy about every thing that "the left" does.

I really don't see personal freedom as being a left or a right issue.

[quote name='Roots' timestamp='1310839349' post='4836066']The people who refuse to acknowledge this are the right-wing folks who go crazy about every thing that "the left" does.

I really don't see personal freedom as being a left or a right issue.
[/quote]

Not only is nobody in any way infringing your personal freedomes, your freedom is guaranteed.

You are free to disagree with government policies.
You are free to voice your opinion.
You are free to vote.
You are free to start a party.
You are free to petition for change in policy.
You are free to start a movement.
You are free to strike.
You are free to illicit change.
You are free to move around freely at your discretion.
You are free to choose any political party, religion or doctrine.
You are free to choose the gender of your partner.
You are even free to leave your country.

You will not be killed, arrested, dismembered, fired, put into mental institution, vanish, your family will not suffer, your relatives will not be hurt, your home will not be burned for excercising any of the above and many more. You will not be fined for buying a specific brand of coffee or more than 500g of sugar per month. You will not be arrested for inappropriate hair style. You will not be stoned for showing your face.

Many of the freedoms listed above do not exist in many of the countries of the world.

Sadly, you will need to lose all of these freedoms before you realize what you once had.

But it's the lightbulbs... Those are the final straw.

There isn't one thing in our life that our government doesn't have a hand in.[/quote]
Then who would you have instead? Mafia? Clergy? Or rule of the strongest, the anarchy. Pick one, there's a country that has it, move there.

So I(for sake of example) can go to a store without a prescription and buy Vicodin or Mary Jane for a bad back? Flumadine for the flu?[/quote]No. But neither can someone else buy a crate of those and make meth.

I can buy the old mercury free light bulbs at Wally World?[/quote]Offices have been using flourescent lighting since cca. 1930s. Those contain several times more mercury. When exactly did mercury become a problem?

I can start up a business and become a cabbie without a cabbie's license?[/quote]No. But please, travel to countries which do not have such requirements. Seriously, you'll understand why licenses and regulation are required.

I can ride a motorcycle without a helmet?[/quote]Oh dear god, the first world is so terrible. The oppression. The tyranny. The fascism.

If I wanted to I could add a room on to my house with getting a builder's permit?[/quote]You can in Turkey. Of course, when the quake hit, tens of thousands died and hundreds of thousands lost their home. But they were Free!

My government hasn't taken my money and bought people cars? It isn't heavily invested in companies like Microsoft and Google?[/quote]

You're right. At least you are free to leave such horrible country. I cannot imagine anyone could still stay in a place like that.

<This is America specific> Because our government is everywhere. There isn't one thing in our life that our government doesn't have a hand in.

Last time I checked, they weren't having any hand in the game I've been developing for the last several years. Be careful about making broad sweeping statements like that.

[quote name='Roots' timestamp='1310839349' post='4836066']The people who refuse to acknowledge this are the right-wing folks who go crazy about every thing that "the left" does.

I really don't see personal freedom as being a left or a right issue.
[/quote]

Your rights end where another person's rights begin. If you want completely, absolute freedom with no restrictions whatsoever, I guess you just need to go find a deserted island somewhere. Laws exist for the good of everyone, not just the individual. I *like* that you have to get a license to operate a motor vehicle. I *like* that my neighbors can't build unsafe extensions to their home that could threaten their safety and devalue nearby properties. I *like* that cocaine, heroine, etc. drugs are illegal because they are dangerous.

I honestly don't understand people who want to see nearly every law and regulation restricting the sale or practice of something in the name of "restricting personal freedom". Yes, your freedom is restricted and so is mine. But it is (hopefully) for the good of both of us. If we lived in a world where people were intelligent, educated, and always respectful of other's rights and welfare, then I would be in favor of less government and more freedom. But the fact is that many people are not.

I'm not in favor of more government nor less government. Sure there are some laws that I disagree with and others that I find outright ridiculous, but I don't go whining that my "personal freedom" is being restricted when I can't go out and buy 20 automatic firearms, a few dozen explosives, and a tank.

If we lived in a world where people were intelligent, educated, and always respectful of other's rights and welfare, then I would be in favor of less government and more freedom. But the fact is that many people are not.

Indeed, we live in a world where most people are 'stupid' and selfish, so as a group we have limited just how stupid and selfish people can be.

As for the 'stealing' (lulz, melodramatic much?) parents of a duty of care over their children and we accept that in cases of child abuse the goverment have the right to remove the child and place them into better care. The same can be extended to diet; if you have parents who are failing to provide their children with a decent diet and putting their health at risk then it is right for the goverment to step in and rehouse those children.

This is for the good of the children AND by extension the good of society as a whole because you end up with a healthier person at the end of it.

If you, as an adult, want to go out and eat McPoision every day then knock yourself out, but when you are endangering the health and future life of a child then I'm sorry but you have failed in your duty of care.

I find it mad that we live in a world where PARENTS can do their children damage (both now and in the future with the various health issues being overweight can bring later in life) and people are complaining because steps have been taken to protect them! Seriously guys, what the hell?

I find it mad that we live in a world where PARENTS can do their children damage (both now and in the future with the various health issues being overweight can bring later in life) and people are complaining because steps have been taken to protect them! Seriously guys, what the hell?

You say that like the government isn't doing the same thing. Watch the Food Revolution and you'll see it's quite bad when the government does it too. Or perhaps watch Waiting for Superman. It's tragic what some kids go through, but by no means should we think the government can do any better than a mediocre parent.

Some people are terribly stupid, but I think you'll find when it comes to their own well being if their choices aren't obfuscated people are generally smarter than they are given credit for.

Some people are terribly stupid, but I think you'll find when it comes to their own well being if their choices aren't obfuscated people are generally smarter than they are given credit for.

Really?

Huh, so I guess all the overweight people who live on bad food, or smoke large amounts, or drink large amounts of alcohol are just a figment of my imagination...

Now, I'm not saying we should ban 'junk' food, or smoking or even alcohol because yeah, people should be able to self moderate but, ya know, they don't..

I couldn't agree more with you phantom. way2lazy2care has a good point too in that the government is generally failing to provide healthy lunch options for school children. Although the children/parents are also partially to blame here I think, because generally there are healthy lunch options provided, but the children always choose to buy the burger and fries options instead.


I have a few friends (some of them conservative!) who think that people should not have the right to procreate if they demonstrate that they are incompetent to adequately care for a child's needs, whether its not having the financial stability to support a child, failing a drug test, etc. Now that I think would go way over the line, but I see where they are coming from. I wish that more people would choose not to have children, choose to have fewer children, or choose not to have children so early in their lives when they are not in a situation to have enough time and money to raise a child well. The "octomom" is a good example of this, as we have a single mother who is unemployed now raising 14 children. And part of our taxes go to help support this unethical woman raise all of those children. So maybe the people (that government is supposed to represent) have a say in reproductive rights after all?