Do you agree with this statement:

The 4 cornerstones of martial arts: flexibility, endurance, speed, and power. In that order. [/quote]
Personally, I don't see how any true martial artist could perfect his/her craft without those 4 mastered or to its pinnacle. If you disagree, what do you think are the most foundations of martial arts?

Note: by martial arts, i don't mean only east asians fighting styles. I mean fighting style from anyone in the world: muay thai, boxing, fencing, etc.

Well beside those 4 things you also need a strong reason to practice martial arts (winning some title, beating up some fuckers from your street or just the will to be tougher than as many as possible) otherwise practicing martial arts just for sports contradicts the "martial" word which means war. Also, a "true" martial artist will need to polish his skills for his entire life, so a long time commitment is also a must, it's always funny hearing dudes bragging that they practiced karate for a year or so some time ago.

I agree with endurance speed and power, flexibility... not that much. I've been doing Muay Thai for a while now, and flexibility isn't really an issue as its basically punching and kicking nothing to fancy that requires me being ultra flexible.

As for the foundation of martial arts, in strictly the combatant sense, I would say its practice and muscle memory actually, which are not on that list. You need to train your muscle to react and act in the proper way which you can only achieve with repeat practicing.

For example when I first started boxing with other people in the class I was really sloppy wasn't getting as good of a Landing Hits:Dodging hits as I would of liked to say the least Lol, but fast foward a few months and I feel pretty confident with my boxing abilities as now its kinda getting to the point slowly but surely where I would dodge or counter a punch or kick kind of instinctly.

In a way its kind of like learning an instrument, you suck at first, you cant play anything right, but over time your hand muscles get used to the shapes and things come out alot more fluently and cleaner then when you first started, same thing with recognizing music your mind "muscles" get used to the kind of sounds certain notes produce and you can replicate it much easier. Its not so much that your thinking quicker, because if anything you'r actually thinking LESS, and its not so much that your finger speed or power increased, cause though it has, the major contributor to that is the muscle memory you developed over years of practice.


And thats my two cents, The Foundation for Martial Arts, and hoenstly any art in that mater is muscle and mind memory.

Certain arts focus more on some of those aspects than others. Boxing emphasises power over flexibility, fencing is more about speed than power, mma more about endurance. Of course various individuals within those disciplines will adapt their style to suit their own particular mix.

But I'd say that technique is more important than any of those. Having flexibility, endurance, speed, and power makes you a great athlete, not necessarily a great fighter.Those aspects are tools you can employ but technique enables you to know how and when to deploy them.

Full disclosure: I practice Aikido. Feel free to add whatever weighting you feel that merits to my opinions.

Toughness is missing. Encompassing the mental aspect of fighting/training. This is especially true in longer sports when fatigue comes into play.

Toughness is missing. Encompassing the mental aspect of fighting/training. This is especially true in longer sports when fatigue comes into play.

Isn't that endurance, or what do you mean?

Precision is one missing that greatly impacts a wide number of martial arts, especially armed.

Balance is important to basically all styles I'm aware of, with the exception of a few grappling styles that have you rolling around on the ground and could likely be done in zero-g.



Power? Pure brute power is needless in many martial arts, and I can't say I've ever found overly forceful hits at all useful in any of the western sword work I've ever done. Trying to use powerful swings and thrusts generally means you are leaving yourself open, and human bodies don't take That much force to damage. It is better to just stick'em with the pointy end a few times than to try and cleave them in clean in two.

Flexibility? It is always good to feel flexible, being able to move and roll with falls, but I've sure never needed to be a contortionist to do heavy fencing. (Except for getting a few straps on different armours. They're really not designed to put on/take off by yourself.)

[quote name='ChurchSkiz' timestamp='1309141444' post='4828079']
Toughness is missing. Encompassing the mental aspect of fighting/training. This is especially true in longer sports when fatigue comes into play.

Isn't that endurance, or what do you mean?

Precision is one missing that greatly impacts a wide number of martial arts, especially armed.

Balance is important to basically all styles I'm aware of, with the exception of a few grappling styles that have you rolling around on the ground and could likely be done in zero-g.
[/quote]

I took this to mean "taking hits." Sadly this is something that many players of Asian and Asian-inspired martial arts completely overlook. To make them more accessible, much of the more brutal, true-to-life training has been removed so that soccer moms and dads aren't afraid to drop off their 8 year-old little preciouses at the dojo for a couple hours a couple nights each week.

Power? Pure brute power is needless in many martial arts, and I can't say I've ever found overly forceful hits at all useful in any of the western sword work I've ever done. Trying to use powerful swings and thrusts generally means you are leaving yourself open, and human bodies don't take That much force to damage. It is better to just stick'em with the pointy end a few times than to try and cleave them in clean in two.

Flexibility? It is always good to feel flexible, being able to move and roll with falls, but I've sure never needed to be a contortionist to do heavy fencing. (Except for getting a few straps on different armours. They're really not designed to put on/take off by yourself.)
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In hand to hand combat power makes a huge difference. Especially if the fight goes to the ground, which it will. Flexibility is not very important, as far as I'm concerned. Flexibility enough to kick below the waist, maybe even to the stomach of your opponent is all that's really necessary. And I think most people have enough flexibility naturally for that already.


I've been training in martial arts for about ten years now.

The OP's 4 words can be interpreted quite differently... depending on the particular art, they'll probably be ranked in a different order too.

e.g. I took flexibility to mean, the ability to adapt to your opponent's style, not the ability to bend your body in different ways. If you can't adapt, then you'll always be beaten eventually.
Endurance might just mean fitness, or it might encompass willpower. Without the will to fight when things get past your breaking point, you're obviously not a "true martial artist"
Speed might cover precision, or not... In a lot of arts, everything is for waste if you have no precision.
Power might mean the ability to punch through a brick wall, or the ability to deftly break an elbow. Power manifests in endless forms.

Define your terms!

I took this to mean "taking hits." Sadly this is something that many players of Asian and Asian-inspired martial arts completely overlook. To make them more accessible, much of the more brutal, true-to-life training has been removed so that soccer moms and dads aren't afraid to drop off their 8 year-old little preciouses at the dojo for a couple hours a couple nights each week.

That might be true for kids at an entry level grade...
In my experience, "conditioning" (mental and physical toughness and endurance) was a huge part of the local karate class.
To get the higher belts, you basically had to get the sh*t kicked out of you by a group of black belts, in succession, over the course of a day, all the while showing good manners and thanking them for the (harsh) beatings. You had to show you were conditioned enough to go on (and still perform well) despite being badly beaten, and this was true for any age trying to reach that level of training.

I meant toughness both in the "ability to take hits" as well as the desire to continue fighting hard despite exhaustion. To me this is much different than endurance. Endurance to me is how long you can go before getting tired. Toughness is how long after that point you'll continue to go.

In a boxing match that goes 10 rounds, both fighters will become tired. Toughness determines how hard they fight even though they've reached that point. Also, in any fight till knockout type art, the ability to keep fighting despite being pummeled is crucial. I've seen plenty of fights (boxing, MMA, and real world) where a person who should have given up or thrown in the towel continue fighting and even win because they wouldn't give up. That aspect wouldn't be as important in a weapon-based art where you're probably going to die after you get hit.

Do you agree with this statement:

The 4 cornerstones of martial arts: flexibility, endurance, speed, and power. In that order.

Personally, I don't see how any true martial artist could perfect his/her craft without those 4 mastered or to its pinnacle. If you disagree, what do you think are the most foundations of martial arts?

Note: by martial arts, i don't mean only east asians fighting styles. I mean fighting style from anyone in the world: muay thai, boxing, fencing, etc.
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They are certainly required, but they aren't sufficient, and I would seriously argue against the ordering. For a Brazilian Juijitsu practitioner, endurance is key. For a Western Boxer, speed and power are the most important. I used to study Tae Kwon Do with a guy who was not very flexible at all, but could still "kick you in the head if [he] wanted to" (he'd punch you in the stomach first to make you double over).

I think any "true" martial artist is anyone who takes the study of physical violence very seriously. You're a martial artist on your first day of study if you're truly serious about it and cognizant of your limitations, as far as I'm concerned. And I think any "true" martial artist is going to figure out their strengths and weaknesses and minimax optimize accordingly, while also trying to work out those weaknesses. Style isn't that important, as Bruce Lee said, "Before I learned the martial arts, I thought a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. After I learned the martial arts, I knew a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick." It's how you employ your technique in your own context that is important.

As for sufficiency, you missing knowledge, you're missing awareness, you're missing ethics, you're missing metal, and any number of things that go in to making someone a competent fighter. Any "martial artist" who discounts some area in favor of others is missing the greater point of martial arts: it's not about fitting an ideal, it's about creating an ideal. Jet Li and Jason Statham are completely different sizes of people, their fighting styles will necessarily be different. ALL aspects are important, and they are equally important, but we don't have the ability to focus on all of them, so you have to choose what fits for you.

So no, I would not say your statement is at all accurate.