I'm sure alot of engineering grads could put a basic computer together if they really needed to though.

An optimist...

After all, people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs certainly knew these things.

...?

[quote name='forsandifs' timestamp='1305112309' post='4809356']
After all, people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs certainly knew these things.

...?
[/quote]

Well, they sure found it useful. I'm not saying that if you know how to make a computer you will become one of the richest people in the world, but that it empowers you.

EDIT: Look at Braben for example with his new £15 micro PC.

[quote name='cowsarenotevil' timestamp='1305131751' post='4809485']
[quote name='forsandifs' timestamp='1305112309' post='4809356']
After all, people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs certainly knew these things.

...?
[/quote]

Well, they sure found it useful. I'm not saying that if you know how to make a computer you will become one of the richest people in the world, but that it empowers you.

EDIT: Look at Braben for example with his new £15 micro PC.
[/quote]

Actually I'm saying that I'm not convinced that Bill Gates and Steve jobs "certainly" knew how to make a "working, programmable computer" completely from scratch. And, more importantly, I think what they do do has pretty much no bearing on whether they can build Turing machines.

Furthermore, the problem with doing this isn't a failure of knowledge, it's a failure of resources; it's not that only a few illuminated people know how to build computers as you seem to suggest, it's that it requires a large number of people to build a computer that's actually useful if you really mean to avoid using pre-built parts altogether. There are lots of people who make interesting mechanical Turing machines, but those have extremely limited practical value and they still almost invariably rely on at least some mass-produced parts.

Actually I'm saying that I'm not convinced that Bill Gates and Steve jobs "certainly" knew how to make a "working, programmable computer" completely from scratch. And, more importantly, I think what they do do has pretty much no bearing on whether they can build Turing machines.

Furthermore, the problem with doing this isn't a failure of knowledge, it's a failure of resources; it's not that only a few illuminated people know how to build computers as you seem to suggest, it's that it requires a large number of people to build a computer that's actually useful if you really mean to avoid using pre-built parts altogether. There are lots of people who make interesting mechanical Turing machines, but those have extremely limited practical value and they still almost invariably rely on at least some mass-produced parts.

Hmm, I guess the problem of making a computer without parts is not obvious to define due to the question of where you draw the line. Obviously you would need some pre-built parts, but if you're just putting together a pre-built CPU and memory chip you're not doing much better than what most PC enthusiasts can do quite easily.

So I'll try to be more specific: without prebuilt CPU, RAM, motherboard, etc.

EDIT: For example, how did Braben make his Raspberry Pi?

Everybody at my school takes a digital design course where the final project is to use ModelSim via VHDL to design a simple processor that supports six or seven instructions. So yeah I could 'build' (though have forgot the specifics with time) a simple CPU. But as always the devil is in the details. Being able to physically build it is a much different beast.

As far as I know Gates has never built any computer from scratch himself. He made a BASIC interpreter Altair via an emulator. So at best he used pre made parts and pieced a computer together.

My HS teacher built a "computer" in the 70s out of old operator patch cables. It did and, or, not type calculations. Again, practical applications of this are a little harder to come by.

How many of you would be able to make a working, programable computer? (i.e. not from pre-built parts)
How important is to know these things?
If the answer to the first question is, not many, is it worrying that the power to make computers is restricted to very few entities?
As computer engineers/scientists should we all be learning not only how to program and use software, but also how to make computers, and how they phsyically work?
Should we all have made, or make, our own little computer from scratch?

While not exactly easy to make a working computer, it is far easier than say 5 or 10 years ago with the system on a chip designs being so common place. The SOC concept has captured all of the requirements to build a computer, outside a few minor connection points, in a single chip.

The importance depends on what you plan to do. If you're going into electronic/chip design, it's very important to understand. As a software developer, understanding the system on a chip concepts may be enough. I would guess, there are programmers that have never dealt with hardware and only understand the concept of programming with a supplied API.

I don't think it's too worrying, we've moved past the point of needing to build computers for every project. Similar to assembly language programming, there are a people that can do it, but it's very rarely needed as a normal programmer.

It's nice to have the knowledge how computers work at a low level, but it's not as useful as it once was. It would be quicker to learn about pipeline stalls than it would be to learn the complete operations of a microprocessor, either way you have the applicable knowledge to optimize code.

As far a building a computer, time is better spent learning more relevant concepts. The amount of information that must be learned to go from assembly language to an object oriented programming language is huge; so you either learn less about each technique or you learn more about a smaller number of techniques.

[quote name='forsandifs' timestamp='1305112309' post='4809356']
After all, people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs certainly knew these things.

Well, they sure found it useful. I'm not saying that if you know how to make a computer you will become one of the richest people in the world, but that it empowers you.

EDIT: Look at Braben for example with his new £15 micro PC.
[/quote]

Back then there was a demand for a basic language or a disk operating system; that really doesn't exist any more. We're also beyond the point where a single programmer could develop an operating system and compete with what's already available. Even a graphics card driver requires a team of programmers to write. You probably have some programmers that develop the hardware interface software, and others that develop the interface between the OS and the hardware interface software. And, still another group that develop the configuration software dealing with the OS interface software.

The ironic thing about the £15 micro is that there is a small amount of knowledge required to design it. With a system on a chip design, the only thing needed is connecting to the outside world using the supplied pins. The HDMI port was added by merely connecting the pins of the HDMI connector to specified pins on the chip.

"EDIT: For example, how did Braben make his Raspberry Pi?"

Well, for one thing he ambled down the road and had a chat with ARM... who're supplying the CPUs.