I was in the middle of prototyping a game (Action / Adventure with RPG elements) when I came to a design decision I was hesitant
about implementing: magic. I am eager to put magic as a skill in the game, but I am concerned about balance. Many developers
have fallen prey to either the 'tank-mage' syndrome or to a powerful 'squishy' that couldn't take two hits. I would love to hear feedback
on implementing a creative magic system in a game with no classes.


Designers have used several different ways to limit magic:

• Mana Pool: the commonly used MP points
• Limit per day: X amount of spells you can cast per day
• Preparation: Spells have to be prepared / remembered from spell book
• Skill: roll dice + attribute against difficulty number
• Low Health: Focusing only on magic meant being a powerful 'squishy'.
  
  These are common alternatives, but I'm aiming for more creativity. A system I was interested in seeing was present in Bioshock Infinite.
  The secondary character, Elizabeth, has the power to summon storms and create giants fireballs, but with every use of her abilities she becomes
  weak to the point of violent coughing and nose bleeds. She doesn't need to binge on blue potions or read a spell book - she just needs a little
  moderation and a moment's rest.
  
  In what way can you have magic without the mana bar? How can you still use magic in a fun way but have to rely on other skills?

make things relative to the spell being cast, and the skill level of the player.

ie the player has to have enough wisdom/magical ability to cast a fireball if the want to cast a fireball.

But spells like shooting lightning from ones finger tips should be almost instant, where as creating a fireball and throwing would take a small amount of time. I always liked the idea of force magics, like pushing energy outwards from ones body. They too would be instant but could take a fair amount of time before they reach their target.

I like this response since it adds more realism to the spells than having each spell instantly strike, but it doesn't answer my previous questions.

In what new ways can you balance this so that it is fun to use and not overpowered?

Your feedback is still appreciated.

You are mixing certain categories of things. Low health can not be a limit for magic, because if you can cast 1000 times per second armageddon spell it does not matter if you have 1HP only. The limit here has to be time or resource (mana) or risk (you can cast it as many times as you want but if you fail to cast the spell you die). Low health for mana users is just a drawback, not limiter for magic use. The same apply for skill, just a skill check (without fatal consequentes for failure) won't work (you will just repeat it 1000 times in one second and it will succeed), skill can be used as adittional consequence not as a main limiter.

Actually, the choices here are very limited:
- time (once per day, preparation, cooldown)
- resource (mana pool, rare components, gems in M&M series) Note that because of regeneration of mana it can be discussed if mana pool is time or resource.
- risk (permanent lose of something upon failure while failure chance can never be be 0%) I can't recall any game to use it, usually they use it as an additional risk component while the main limiter is time or resource.

A system I was interested in seeing was present in Bioshock Infinite.
The secondary character, Elizabeth, has the power to summon storms and create giants fireballs, but with every use of her abilities she becomes
weak to the point of violent coughing and nose bleeds. She doesn't need to binge on blue potions or read a spell book - she just needs a little
moderation and a moment's rest.

It's called cooldown. The only unique thing here is that they decided to visualise it as body reaction instead of cooldown bar. Take a note that technically it is identical to a very small mana pool with very fast refill rate.

Meh. I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around your complaint. You don't like it when mages can take a lot of hits (would it matter to you if this capability were the result of magic?), and you also don't like it when they can't take many at all.

I think that the major issue when people ask questions like this is that generally all games use the same gameplay approaches for the different classes within the game. That is, a typical warrior character is expected to have high hitpoints and be able to take a lot of hits (and by the way, it's similarly objectionable for a character to take 20 axe-blows from an orc because of his "constitution" as it is to be magic-related). But the same dungeons are expected to be complete-able by other classes, like a mage. This will be even more the case in a game like yours, without distinct classes. So no matter what solutions you end up deciding between, you're probably going to have to go along with some tropes anyways.

Since you liked the Elizabeth example you gave in the OP, how about having magic drain HP rather than (or in addition to) another resource? That way magic is still there, and can still be awesome and powerful, but you'll be more careful in using it. Or you can do something like Star Ocean 3, where a character is incapacitated after running out of HP or MP, thought this still has the mana bar. An idea that I've always liked is that magic depletes some resource (captured souls or something) which you can get enough of during your adventure to keep you casting, but which are difficult to get a lot of without doing some unsavory things.

And another thought before I go: something I think often works better than defining mechanics (especially when you're not certain which mechanic you want) is approaching things from the story/setting side. In your game, what is magic? How does it work? Why can people use it? What effects has the existence of magic had on society? Starting to answer those questions, and keeping the answers as consistent with each other as possible, will help you see how you want characters in your game world to relate to magic, its use and limitations, and so one. That will be a more creative approach than assuming the normal fantasy-video game tropes and simultaneously trying to escape from them.

The issue comes with balancing. Usually, magic deals more damage than physical attacks. To keep them in line with physical attacks, the usual method is to limit their use by making them require a limited resource, mana in most cases. If you remove mana, you need to introduce negative elements to spell casting. This could be casting delay and interrupts, cooldowns, reagents, varying effect depending on target's condition(ex : high damage only if hurt by a previous attack) and so on. Alternatively, you could bring physical damage up to magical damage and you wouldn't need any negative element.

About the squishy mage, this is because the following formula is used when balancing :

Power = Durability * DPS

If magic deals twice as much damage than an axe swing, then the mage needs to have half the HP of the warrior to keep their power equal. Since magic is usually more powerful than physical attacks, mages need to be squishy of they would be unbalanced.

I have never been a huge fan of any of those systems(except maybe cool down). All of the listed solutions can be done well or done poorly, and be given much different feels. Like Acharis said, having a physical manifestation of your "mana pool" resulting in something like coughing or bleeding is (mechanically) the same as having a blue bar at the top of your screen that tells you if you can cast. I say if you are looking for creativity of magic use, you will need to throw out some of the standard ideas of magic.

Maybe the magic spell casting isn't necessarily a separate mechanic from others. Try using magic in a supporting role instead of a standalone role. Don't have someone level up spellcasting and learn fireball. Have a sword fighter level up their magic and gain the ability to enchant his sword, allowing him to toss out his sword and melee attack with it from 30 yards away. Previously, the sword fighter would have had trouble with many archer enemies, because he couldn't get close. Now, the problem is fixed by letting him melee attack at range. It doesn't need to be some big flashy casting sequence or anything. Have the sword fighters magic skill unlock a sort of ranged auto attack, like an archer would start with.

In that case, the magic would not necessarily have to be "balanced" as a separate system, as it would compliment the systems in place and be combined with them in a way..

Definitely go play Magicka, a wonderful example of a new, creative, clever, player skill oriented, engaging, and various other adjectives, magic system.

Beyond that, if you don't know how to approach magic in your game then as Khaiy said;

...from the story/setting side. In your game, what is magic? How does it work? Why can people use it? What effects has the existence of magic had on society? Starting to answer those questions, and keeping the answers as consistent with each other as possible, will help you see how you want characters in your game world to relate to magic, its use and limitations, and so on. That will be a more creative approach than assuming the normal fantasy-video game tropes and simultaneously trying to escape from them.[/quote]

First of all, thank you for all the recommendations. The gamedev forums have been great in helping me be a better designer and think about games with more depth. To answer a few questions, yes I've played Magicka. I love how they took a gambit and did away with mana bar. They balanced the game by making the character slower (and more vulnerable) when casting more elements. So you had to choose between quick, but weak spells or powerful spells that made you more vulnerable.

The main question I enjoy is this:

Meh. I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around your complaint. You don't like it when mages can take a lot of hits (would it matter to you if this capability were the result of magic?), and you also don't like it when they can't take many at all.

I think that the major issue when people ask questions like this is that generally all games use the same gameplay approaches for the different classes within the game. That is, a typical warrior character is expected to have high hitpoints and be able to take a lot of hits (and by the way, it's similarly objectionable for a character to take 20 axe-blows from an orc because of his "constitution" as it is to be magic-related). But the same dungeons are expected to be complete-able by other classes, like a mage. This will be even more the case in a game like yours, without distinct classes. So no matter what solutions you end up deciding between, you're probably going to have to go along with some tropes anyways.

Since you liked the Elizabeth example you gave in the OP, how about having magic drain HP rather than (or in addition to) another resource? That way magic is still there, and can still be awesome and powerful, but you'll be more careful in using it. Or you can do something like Star Ocean 3, where a character is incapacitated after running out of HP or MP, thought this still has the mana bar. An idea that I've always liked is that magic depletes some resource (captured souls or something) which you can get enough of during your adventure to keep you casting, but which are difficult to get a lot of without doing some unsavory things.

And another thought before I go: something I think often works better than defining mechanics (especially when you're not certain which mechanic you want) is approaching things from the story/setting side. In your game, what is magic? How does it work? Why can people use it? What effects has the existence of magic had on society? Starting to answer those questions, and keeping the answers as consistent with each other as possible, will help you see how you want characters in your game world to relate to magic, its use and limitations, and so one. That will be a more creative approach than assuming the normal fantasy-video game tropes and simultaneously trying to escape from them.

To answer, magic in the game is more like a dangerous, untapped power that is taught and known only by a quarter of the population. Learning and casting powerful magic puts a physical strain on the user, which means that if you are too weak or too foolish, you will most likely die using it. At the same token, those who are strong or wise enough to control powerful magic effectively are usually the heads of courts, gangs, and organizations. However, there are leaders who cannot control magic.


Because of its risky, but powerful potential it requires a certain degree of expertise to use depending on the magnitude. Scientists may have magical machines that require a team of 'users' to operate and keep under control, while a lowly mechanic may use it to meld metal with his fingers. The more difficult the magic, the more people and strength is required to use it.

In combat and in times of urgency, magic is a trump card or tactic that turns the tides of the fight. A thief may clap his hands to make a flash bang before phasing through a wall to escape. A gunner could levitate to higher ground to pick off targets or summon a wall of fire to keep them at bay. It can be used to get an advantage, but if relied on too much can usually lead to your demise.

To answer, magic in the game is more like a dangerous, untapped power that is taught and known only by a quarter of the population. Learning and casting powerful magic puts a physical strain on the user, which means that if you are too weak or too foolish, you will most likely die using it. At the same token, those who are strong or wise enough to control powerful magic effectively are usually the heads of courts, gangs, and organizations. However, there are leaders who cannot control magic.


Because of its risky, but powerful potential it requires a certain degree of expertise to use depending on the magnitude. Scientists may have magical machines that require a team of 'users' to operate and keep under control, while a lowly mechanic may use it to meld metal with his fingers. The more difficult the magic, the more people and strength is required to use it.

In combat and in times of urgency, magic is a trump card or tactic that turns the tides of the fight. A thief may clap his hands to make a flash bang before phasing through a wall to escape. A gunner could levitate to higher ground to pick off targets or summon a wall of fire to keep them at bay. It can be used to get an advantage, but if relied on too much can usually lead to your demise.

In that case, I would agree with your approach to do away with a mana bar, and instead have some scaling risks from using magic combined with a non-combat emphasis for magic use. Spells should be rarer than a typical RPG, since a character is either taking a much larger risk by using it or not expecting much of an effect.

I might set up a system like this: broad areas of magic, from which the player can construct their own "spells". As the desired effect of a spell increases, so too does the risk, the nature of which should be reflected by the areas of magic from which the spell draws. So a small fire spell to provide light in a dungeon might singe the hands of the caster for damage if it goes wrong and be basically useless against enemies. But a major fireball might totally immolate the caster in a botch, causing severe burns or instant death-- so if you really need it, you can try it, but you'd better be sure the situation requires that you try to go beyond your limits that way. But players can always choose how much risk they want to take at any given time, and have a freer form magic system which will help with the lack of set spells and a mana bar, to which they are probably accustomed.

And all spells should drain the player somehow, whether it be HP or stamina or whatever system you'd like, to reflect the toll the spell has on the caster. The only requirement for what trait you choose to drain is that it be important and useful for the player in some non-magical way. Perhaps it should also be something that can't be easily or instantly replaced (that is, if it drains HP, you can't just guzzle some potions to get around the cost).

Some references that might give you inspiration are A Wizard of Earthsea, a book that has a similar look on magic and its risks/rewards. The Alvin Maker book series also has a perspective sort of like the one you envision for magic in your game. And the TV show Fullmetal Alchemist might be worth a look too, at least the first few episodes.