Hello,

I'm a creative individual who has always wanted to be a game designer. I picked up programming a few months ago and I really got into it. I've always enjoyed mathematics solving logical problems. So I decided that programming would be a good way to get into the industry. I decided I'd start a game school, one I know is excellent. But then I said to myself, "how can I combine my creativity, love for math and joy of programming?" and decided I'd go for a university degree instead. When it came to deciding between 3 years for a Bachelor's or 5 years for a Master's, someone told me: "Do you want to develop with existing methods and technology, or do you want to have the option to work with the development of new methods and technology?". Me, being creative (and recently, extremely driven), found the latter more attractive.

So by now I've finally decided on going to university to get a Master's degree in Engineering Mathematics. There are a few reasons why I chose EM over CS, the main reason being that the curriculum and the layout of EM appeals to me more. I plan to specialize in computer software, with extra attention paid to algorithms and advanced computer graphics. I can truthfully say that I'm more excited about this choice than my game school choice. Of course, I'll program plenty in my spare time. Five years is plenty of time to build up my skills and do some projects on the side. Ideally, I'd want to work in something like R&D or game engine programming. AI and gameplay programming peak my interest, too.

However, when it comes to applying for a job, the evil circle seems to be there: You need industry experience to get a job, but to get that experience you first need a job. And from what it seems, they seem to mostly want programming experience. I know extremely little about how the industry works and it's most likely very different from company to company. However, it seems like an impossible thing. I know it's not impossible, so how is it done? How do you, without experience, get a job where experience is required?

There is no way I can get the experience of working on a game project with other people in a professional environment unless someone gives me that first job. My professional programming experience has to start somewhere. Right?

Dude I'm right there with you. I'm in a similar boat but with only difference is that I'm more into writing than programming. I think for a career in game design, there are many entry points (meaning I hope there is) and from what I gathered, you aren't going to immediately start off as a game designer.

Since you are a programmer, you can probably get a job at a small time developer as a programmer. From there, you can eventually pitch ideas to lead a project. I myself am preparing a portfolio of game design documents to show to one of the industry people that comes to my school every now and then and practically beg them for a QA job or something.

I dunno, like I said, I'm in a similar boat as you, so maybe I shouldn't be giving advice that I don't know will work

1. I picked up programming a few months ago
2. When it came to deciding between 3 years for a Bachelor's or 5 years for a Master's, someone told me: "Do you want to develop with existing methods and technology, or do you want to have the option to work with the development of new methods and technology?"
3. Me... found the latter more attractive.
4. There are a few reasons why I chose EM over CS, the main reason being that the curriculum and the layout of EM appeals to me more.
5. However, when it comes to applying for a job, the evil circle seems to be there: You need industry experience to get a job, but to get that experience you first need a job.
6. And from what it seems, they seem to mostly want programming experience.
7. I know extremely little about how the industry works
8. it seems like an impossible thing.
9. I know it's not impossible, so how is it done?
10. How do you, without experience, get a job where experience is required?
11. There is no way I can get the experience of working on a game project with other people in a professional environment unless someone gives me that first job.
12. My professional programming experience has to start somewhere. Right?

Are you quite finished ranting yet? Did it feel good to vent? ()
1. OK, so you've only just begun. You have a long way to go yet before you have to worry about all this stuff.
2. What idiot said that to you, and why did you take it as gospel? You do not have to choose between those two things, and neither thing precludes the other.
3. You have to do the first and you already have the option of the second, and nothing is going to keep you from having that option.
4. That's a fine reason. Go for it.
5. Ridiculous. You need industry experience to get a NON-ENTRY-LEVEL job. You don't need industry experience to start. That would be impossible, and the industry would die of natural attrition.
6. Where are you getting these weird "facts"? They also want lots of artists, testers, producers, etc.
7. Then you should read! Start with this forum's FAQs (above).
8, 9. Get a degree. Build a portfolio. Apply for an entry-level job.
10. You don't apply for advanced jobs for which you are not qualified.
11. You're starting with a flawed premise. You develop your chops in a non-professional environment until you're ready to get hired into the professional environment.
12. Sure. Start by reading the FAQs. Then stop all this silly worrying and work on your degree and your portfolio.

1. I think for a career in game design, there are many entry points (meaning I hope there is)
2. and from what I gathered, you aren't going to immediately start off as a game designer.
3. Since you are a programmer,
4. you can probably get a job at a small time developer as a programmer.
5. From there, you can eventually pitch ideas to lead a project.
6. I myself am preparing a portfolio of game design documents to show to one of the industry people that comes to my school every now and then and practically beg them for a QA job or something.
7. I dunno, like I said, I'm in a similar boat as you, so maybe I shouldn't be giving advice that I don't know will work

1. Of course there are. See the FAQs.
2. Right.
3. He isn't yet. He's only been at it for a few months.
4. Not until he's fully cooked.
5. Pitching ideas is one thing -- leading a project is an entirely different thing.
6. There are several things wrong with that statement.
- a. Nobody's going to look at your GDDs (for reasons given in the FAQs);
- b. You said you want to be a writer, so why aren't you writing stories instead of GDDs?
- c. GDDs are not a path into QA.
- d. QA jobs are the easiest jobs to get. See the FAQs
- e. Never BEG -- apply in the normal smart way.
7. Good thought.

Are you quite finished ranting yet? Did it feel good to vent? ()
2. What idiot said that to you, and why did you take it as gospel? You do not have to choose between those two things, and neither thing precludes the other.
3. You have to do the first and you already have the option of the second, and nothing is going to keep you from having that option.
5. Ridiculous. You need industry experience to get a NON-ENTRY-LEVEL job. You don't need industry experience to start. That would be impossible, and the industry would die of natural attrition.

Nothing like a good rant

2. A random idiot. Interesting enough, the website of the university I want to study in says the same thing. See "Working with established knowledge and technology" versus "Developing new systems and technology". There's a reason why one is 3 years and the other is 5.
3. Not exactly. Engineering Mathematics is a 5-year program, there is no equivalent 3-year program in EM. I see your point though.
5. This is just based on what I've seen on the website of several game companies, and a real-life discussion I had with a former lead programmer for an AAA game (he was at some point in charge of handling all applications for programming positions).

I see the problem now. The companies I've been looking at all develop AAA games. So they're most likely only looking for experienced people and would only rarely have job openings at entry-level positions. Someone else suggested that I either work on my own projects or contribute in a significant way to an open source project. These both sounds like good ideas and I think I'll aim at doing both things. I read the part in your FAQ about networking, that could be a good way to eventually get an internship.

Dude I'm right there with you. I'm in a similar boat but with only difference is that I'm more into writing than programming. I think for a career in game design, there are many entry points (meaning I hope there is) and from what I gathered, you aren't going to immediately start off as a game designer.

Since you are a programmer, you can probably get a job at a small time developer as a programmer. From there, you can eventually pitch ideas to lead a project. I myself am preparing a portfolio of game design documents to show to one of the industry people that comes to my school every now and then and practically beg them for a QA job or something.

I dunno, like I said, I'm in a similar boat as you, so maybe I shouldn't be giving advice that I don't know will work

I used to be into writing too, as well as game design. I decided to let these things remain as hobbies. I wouldn't count on getting employed as a game designer if you have no experience. Most likely you'd have to start at some place like QA. Some say it's good. I've heard that developers dislike QA-testers, which is why they sometimes are kept very separate and far away from other developers. That might've been a joke though. Some say that QA-testers kind get to talk to everybody, which gives them an overview of different areas of game development.


If I can just find where those small time developers are However, if I did start working as a programmer, I dont think I'd want to pitch any ideas. I'd be happy just being a creative programmer

When I first picked up programming, I did so because I thought that even better than designing cool games was to actually make playable versions of these games. That way, I could prove that I could make good games with limited resources, and that I can program (and therefore have a better understanding of that vital part of game development).

2. A random idiot. Interesting enough, the website of the university I want to study in says the same thing. See "Working with established knowledge and technology" versus "Developing new systems and technology". There's a reason why one is 3 years and the other is 5.

So an institution that makes money from people studying tells you it is better to study for longer... that's a surprise. A Masters isn't necessary - you can do one if it is what you want but it certainly isn't necessary for a job in game development.

5. This is just based on what I've seen on the website of several game companies, and a real-life discussion I had with a former lead programmer for an AAA game (he was at some point in charge of handling all applications for programming positions).[/quote]
Then you misunderstood.
Companies don't advertise entry level positions because they get swamped with far more applications in spec than they have entry level positions. Advertising is necessary for positions that require experience because experienced staff are hard to come by. That is why all the jobs you see ads for require X years experience. As for the guy on the Triple A team. You either misunderstood what he meant or his team only hires experienced people. many other teams hire entry level staff (but don't advertise) with no previous industry experience.

So an institution that makes money from people studying tells you it is better to study for longer... that's a surprise. A Masters isn't necessary - you can do one if it is what you want but it certainly isn't necessary for a job in game development.

I wouldn't say that they're saying it's better to study longer. They're (very briefly) explaining the difference between the two. I know you don't need a Master's to get a job in the industry (as is obvious from all the job requirements where they say "A Bachelor's in CS(or equivalent)". I was just saying that, judging by what I was to do, a Master's seems more suitable for me. I could be wrong. This might be a good time to ask: What programmers make it into positions where they work on game engines or in R&D? People who just are really really good at what they're doing, or people who possess both knowledge and skill to push things to the next level? Certain things are easier to pick up and more accessible in university, but I also don't know about the possibilities of learning these new things while you're working. I'm deciding on my education based on limited information and because of this I'm simply trying to make the best decision. In this case, getting a Master's seems safer if I want to be involved in these parts of game development.

Then you misunderstood.
Companies don't advertise entry level positions because they get swamped with far more applications in spec than they have entry level positions. Advertising is necessary for positions that require experience because experienced staff are hard to come by. That is why all the jobs you see ads for require X years experience. As for the guy on the Triple A team. You either misunderstood what he meant or his team only hires experienced people. many other teams hire entry level staff (but don't advertise) with no previous industry experience.

I'll disagree with you on the part about the lead programmer who was involved in the hiring process. He was talking about people who applied for entry-level positions.

The rest of what you said makes a lot of sense. That possibility occurred to me earlier today. If they were official about open positions then applications would flood in and the majority of those applications would be by people with inferior skills, and it would just increase the workload on the hiring staff.