On the lighter side of things, I have this thing that urks me.

Every time I read that someone is looking for a 'coder' - I think, ok, they're looking for someone to create a php script, or a website, or something on that level. Something that doesn't require digging anywhere near the hells of pointers or malloc.

On the other hand, when I see someone looking for a 'programmer' I picture work that relates to creating a standalone executable. I don't think that a programmer is a title for someone who writes scripts to execute on a website.

I'm not saying being a coder or a programmer is bad, nor do I think the two are exclusive. And I'm not talking about classifying people as either.

I'm talking about using those words as an accurate job description. I can't tell you how many job titles I've seen requesting a programmer, and the only things they want you to know is HTML, CSS and/or JavaScript. I just can't associate those with the title 'programmer'. That title should be 'coder' or 'scripter'.

Same goes for the opposite - requesting a 'coder' when what need, what you really want, is a someone who knows C, C++, C#, Java. I've seen quite a few posts on this site asking for coders when what I think they need is a programmer.

Really, there are huge differences between web-designing languages/scripts (html, css, php) and programming languages. Differences that require two somewhat overlapping, but different at the core, skill sets.

What do you people think? ( "you're crazy" is also a valid opinion)

That's my rant.

My thought is the word coder should be droped, it's not a job title. It's slang

And the only things they want you to know is HTML, CSS and/or JavaScript. I just can't associate those with the title 'programmer'. That title should be 'coder' or 'scripter'.

Why are you mixing JavaScript with HTML/CSS? JavaScript is a proper programming language on the same level (as a language, not as far as API are concerned) as any other modern programming language.

Really, there are huge differences between web-designing languages/scripts (html, css, php) and programming languages. Differences that require two somewhat overlapping, but different at the core, skill sets.

Same, why are you mixing php with HTML/CSS, php is a programming language like any other, and it's definately the same skillset.

Note that language issues aside you seem to be implying that "web dev" is different from non webdev, while in truth they're the same with differences only showing at the presentation layer.

With a RESTful API there is a lot you can do with PHP. If you think its just a simple scripting language then you haven't looked to closely at it.

Any decent 'programmer' shouldn't be messing with raw pointers or malloc either. Either use a smart pointer, or better yet, a managed language. I haven't even thought of memory management in probably a year and its great.

You have to write code to make a program do anything so the only real difference between the two is just semantics.

when I see someone looking for a 'programmer' I picture work that relates to creating a standalone executable. I don't think that a programmer is a title for someone who writes scripts to execute on a website.[/quote]

Damn those 20000 script kiddies at Google.

First off, I disagree that JavaScript and php do the same things as programming languages, and are only different on the outside.

They're actually classified separately for one, as 'scripting languages'. There's reasons for that, relating to the fact that they run inside another program.

And what do you mean by 'any decent programmer'? I went out of my way to avoid calling people names, and you go and to it right off the bat.

I deal with raw pointers all the time. I use malloc for dynamic memory allocation. So, what you just called me not a decent programmer. Aaaand, that's why maybe I shouldn't have started this post. Why the names?

Writing a program that operates in it's own separate process is NOT the same as writing one that runs inside another program. You have a lot more options with C++ to take control of different hardware devices, create threads, read data from places other than the disk, and control a lot about your environment (i.e. the operating system). The scripting languages just don't need that, nor do they have control over these features. If you've ever dealt with multithreading, and the problems associated with that, you'd understand what I mean by different. And knowing how to deal with that is a different skillset, not required for scripting languages.

Yeah, the arguments you're presenting are what I've heard from a lot of people. I disagree, and I've tried to explain myself.

when I see someone looking for a 'programmer' I picture work that relates to creating a standalone executable. I don't think that a programmer is a title for someone who writes scripts to execute on a website.

Damn those 20000 script kiddies at Google.
[/quote]

Yes, so what? I'd call some of their tasks scripting. But they also do other stuff. They have servers, server backbones. They publish a few standalone applications. So not all of their work is scripting.


Is that bad? Are you offended? Why?

Is it that bad to say that I think requirements are different for different types of work? DO you really think someone programming a video game with C has to deal with the same problems as someone writing a game with JavaScript? Would a person who's done one, but never the other have no problem moving?

I don't think so, and I've tried explaining that to the best of my ability. I'm done.

If you think its just a simple scripting language then you haven't looked to closely at it.

'simple' implies that I somehow said it's easier work. I didn't. I've done some php, granted, not much. I enjoy it, I think it's good at what it does.


But it's a scripting language,

First off, I disagree that JavaScript and php do the same things as programming languages, and are only different on the outside.

They're actually classified separately for one, as 'scripting languages'. There's reasons for that, relating to the fact that they run inside another program.

Scripting languages are still programming languages. Using your argument java isn't a programming language either.

Any decent 'programmer' shouldn't be messing with raw pointers or malloc either. Either use a smart pointer, or better yet, a managed language. I haven't even thought of memory management in probably a year and its great.

Bzzt!
Wrong wrong wrong.

A decent programmer does what is required to get the job as required.

Now, maybe with whatever you are doing you can work in such as way as being able to avoid thinking about memory management however there are still areas where a great deal of thought has to be put into memory management, data flow and cache interaction. In that enviroment a 'decent programmer' WILL be caring about these things and a non-decent programmer won't (as a rendering programmer; 'game play' and 'AI' I'm looking at YOU!).

Fun fact; I rearrange some code at work to consider data flow, memory access etc, took me less than a day... saved 30% of the run time, or 0.5ms, on the PS3.

So, yeah, you can live in a world where you use managed languages and smart pointers and pretend memory doesn't matter, and for some things that's good; don't get me wrong, I love C# for the right thing. Of course, other times you can look at the world a different way and discover performance you didn't think was there.

Scripting languages are still programming languages. Using your argument java isn't a programming language either.

Well, too be fair...