I agree a large number of options in sandbox games can be overwhelming but I don't think always limiting the number of options is the best solution. At some point players are going to master the amount of options they have and know what to do with them. Then they will be ready for more.

Isn't it a bit more simple of educating players what they can do so that once they know what they want to do its easy to choose which option? For example, you start playing EVE and zip through the tutorial. Followed by "hmm.. now what?". Someone links you What to do in EVE online and you may start to piece it together of whats next. Options are only intimidating when you don't know what they are or what they mean.

I agree that we should certainly not limit the available options. But we also need to make sure that the player is not overloaded with information. The way to achieve both is to only feed the player information he wants to know. Which brings us to my information tree idea.

First present the player only with the absolutely essential mechanics. Then present the player with say 5 options that encompass in a very general way everything that the game has to offer. He can chose one interesting option and if he so wishes then be presented with another say 5 options which encompass everything respresented by that first option he made. Etc Etc... The player is never overwhelmed with information but has all the options in the game available to him, which he can consider in a manageable way.

I agree that we should certainly not limit the available options. But we also need to make sure that the player is not overloaded with information. The way to achieve both is to only feed the player information he wants to know. Which brings us to my information tree idea.

First present the player only with the absolutely essential mechanics. Then present the player with say 5 options that encompass in a very general way everything that the game has to offer. He can chose one interesting option and if he so wishes then be presented with another say 5 options which encompass everything respresented by that first option he made. Etc Etc... The player is never overwhelmed with information but has all the options in the game available to him, which he can consider in a manageable way.

how is this different than how WoW does it? Not picking on the concept or you. I just feel like I'm missing the differentiating factor.

[quote name='forsandifs' timestamp='1298027734' post='4775803']
I agree that we should certainly not limit the available options. But we also need to make sure that the player is not overloaded with information. The way to achieve both is to only feed the player information he wants to know. Which brings us to my information tree idea.

First present the player only with the absolutely essential mechanics. Then present the player with say 5 options that encompass in a very general way everything that the game has to offer. He can chose one interesting option and if he so wishes then be presented with another say 5 options which encompass everything respresented by that first option he made. Etc Etc... The player is never overwhelmed with information but has all the options in the game available to him, which he can consider in a manageable way.

how is this different than how WoW does it? Not picking on the concept or you. I just feel like I'm missing the differentiating factor.
[/quote]

I'm not explaining myself well.

WoW is a world where that is very much on rails in terms of gameplay. You can do X, Y, or Z and little else. The earlier you are in the game the more this is the case, but as a general rule its always the case.

Sandbox MMOs provide the player with tools which the player can use in flexible and interactive ways. This makes for a lot of possible gameplay options.

What WoW does well however is that it has user friendliness because it doesn't overwhelm the player with information or make the player feel at a loss as to what to do at any point.

The problem with Sandbox MMORPGs is therefore one of keeeping the available options and thus keeping the gameplay rich and varied (unlike WoW), informing the player of how to go about playing the inherently complex game, and making sure he is not overloaded with information.

WoW ensures the player is not overloaded by providing a limited number of gameplay options.

I propose that Sandbox MMOs ensure the player is not overloaded not by limiting gameplay options, but by limiting pedagogical help provided by the game to what the player choses to learn about, and limiting (mainly through generalisation) the pedagogical help subjects the player can choose from to a manageable number.

An example:

Player A spawns for the first time into the particular Sandbox MMORPG world. He is first told the basics of character control. Fine.

Now he wants to actually do something fun. But he doesn't know how. So the game provides an obvious help interface. This could be in the form of tutorial quests. So there are some obvious tutorial quest guys standing around ready to help the new player find something fun to do and learn the various parts of the game at his own pace.

One of the guys could be the guy that helps the player learn about Combat, another one could be the guy that helps the player learn about Crafting, another guy could be an Exploration helper, etc... Each of these tutorial quest guys gives the player a quest that gets the player started on the fun subject chosen by the player. Then they provide the player with 5 more quests, each of them going into suitable detail on the particular subject.

The Combat example might be an option of quests pertaining to Ranged Weapon Combat, Spell Combat, Melee Combat, PvE Combat, PvP Combat...

So we see in this example that the gameplay has not been limited at any point. If the player knows how to or figures it out for himself he can immediately go off and engage in any part of the gamplay he could wish to without further guidance from the game. But the if the player needs it or wants it he has readily accessible manageable information on how to get started on any particular area of gameplay he wants to get started on.

WoW is a world where that is very much on rails in terms of gameplay. You can do X, Y, or Z and little else.

WoW is hardly on rails. Not quite as much variety as I would like, but I was never at a loss for stuff to do in whatever order I pleased post level 10.

An example:

Player A spawns for the first time into the particular Sandbox MMORPG world. He is first told the basics of character control. Fine.

Now he wants to actually do something fun. But he doesn't know how. So the game provides an obvious help interface. This could be in the form of tutorial quests. So there are some obvious tutorial quest guys standing around ready to help the new player find something fun to do and learn the various parts of the game at his own pace.

One of the guys could be the guy that helps the player learn about Combat, another one could be the guy that helps the player learn about Crafting, another guy could be an Exploration helper, etc... Each of these tutorial quest guys gives the player a quest that gets the player started on the fun subject chosen by the player. Then they provide the player with 5 more quests, each of them going into suitable detail on the particular subject.
[/quote]

This is pretty much exactly what WoW does.

This is pretty much exactly what WoW does.

Untrue.

In before "why is it untrue". Figure it out for yourself lazy... And while you're at it figure out why Sandbox MMORPGs are different to Themepark MMORPGs if you can.. And also try and figure out the difference between selectively limiting help information and limiting gameplay options..

WoW might seem like it is not on rails, but that is only because it is designed not to appear like it. You do have options, but most of these decision you make early on like Race, Class and Spec These generally dictate where you go and what you do. However, there is some choice in the game as you build your spec, or in superficial things like crafting and such, but on the whole, it is a fairly linear game play experience (not that there is anything wrong with linear game play, even for an MMO, it is just that it is what it is even if it can be fun for being like it is).

With sand box games (not just MMOS) the player actually has to work for their fun more than in other games. This means you have to make that work fun and not overwhelm the player. This is why grinding fails in sandbox games - it is not fun.

The way I tend to see sandbox type games is that as the developer you are making the tools that players can create their own fun with. Now, when someone learns to use a set of tools, they don't just try and use all the tools at once. It is too hard to do that. Also, no-one becomes a master crafsperson on their first attempt. What you have to do is teach the players how to use your tools, without telling them what to do with the tools.

This is not easy.

The other thing with tools is that the are used to turn something into something else. As MMOS are about interacting with other players, then the "something" that players are going to be working with the tools is the interactions between them and other players. In most MMOs these days, there is crafting and helping the others with combats/questing and this is pretty much the limit of interactions.

In "Theme Park" MMOs, this is not a problem as the developers have done the work to encourage this type of gameplay. Because the time of the player is spent doing these things anyway, allowing them to interact with others while doing them is a natural intersection between that and the fact that it is an MMO.

In a Sandbox MMO, as the developer it is impossible for you to do this (because if you did it, you wouldn't have a sandbox MMO, but would have a Theme Park MMO).

[quote name='forsandifs' timestamp='1298066057' post='4776086']
WoW is a world where that is very much on rails in terms of gameplay. You can do X, Y, or Z and little else.

WoW is hardly on rails. Not quite as much variety as I would like, but I was never at a loss for stuff to do in whatever order I pleased post level 10.

An example:

Player A spawns for the first time into the particular Sandbox MMORPG world. He is first told the basics of character control. Fine.

Now he wants to actually do something fun. But he doesn't know how. So the game provides an obvious help interface. This could be in the form of tutorial quests. So there are some obvious tutorial quest guys standing around ready to help the new player find something fun to do and learn the various parts of the game at his own pace.

One of the guys could be the guy that helps the player learn about Combat, another one could be the guy that helps the player learn about Crafting, another guy could be an Exploration helper, etc... Each of these tutorial quest guys gives the player a quest that gets the player started on the fun subject chosen by the player. Then they provide the player with 5 more quests, each of them going into suitable detail on the particular subject.
[/quote]

This is pretty much exactly what WoW does.
[/quote]

[font="Arial"]WoW actually does the majority of its teaching through the UI, via overlays and changing of the info in tool-tips. Very little of it is now through actual in-game characters telling you what to do/quests. The point, at least from what i have read in the thread, if the techniques are similar to other MMORPGs but a discussion on how sandbox MMORPGs can be improved to "catch up" with theme-park MMORPGs. [/font]

[font="Arial"]In-fact it would be a positive thing for sandbox MMORPG designers to take the positive parts of theme-park ones and incorporate them into the design, in this instance those are the tutorial elements. I think i have said before, if a game-like Darkfall was more "newbie" friendly i would have stuck with it for a lot longer than i did. [/font]

[font="Arial"]As for WoW being on the rails it most positively is. The main distinction between a sandbox and theme-park MMORPG is the fact sandbox's game-play uses a lot ofplayer generated content. In theme-park MMORPGs designers dictate what the player does, there is very little/none player created content within the game.WoW is a perfect example of this, as any RPer, player has little say in how the world works. Those times the players have broken out of the mould of what the designer wants them to do it has be quickly patched and removed, at least the ability to do said thing. The fact you have lots to do/choices doesn't mean WoW is in any way a sandbox MMORPG but shows that it is fundamentally well designed. This is also shown in the fact you and many others don't even realize how controlled their experience is. [/font]

[font="Arial"](beaten to the punch it seems [/font] )[font="Arial"] [/font]

In a Sandbox MMO, as the developer it is impossible for you to do this (because if you did it, you wouldn't have a sandbox MMO, but would have a Theme Park MMO).

I wouldn't say it would be a theme-park MMOG. The reason why is that theMMOGs that most people see, even me, as examples of current generation sandbox MMOGs do use a number of elements from theme-park MMOGs (just very poorly most of the time).

I think the issue is more terminology than anything. I would consider something like Second Life as a sandbox game but would also consider EvE one.One is very much the definition of a sandbox game while the other has a lot of"designer support" when it comes to the world etc.

So is EvE a sandbox MMOG? Well i guess not if you’re being very stringent with the definition. But at the same time it is not a theme-park MMOG. This is why i would call it a sandbox MMOG, it may not be the best definition but for the most part it fits.

From what i have understood when reading this thread, as well as general pondering, it does seem a valid idea for the designer to at least take on the guise of a theme-park MMOG for the first section of the game. The sole purpose of which is to not flood the player from the start with options to the point they get scared/lost in the world you have made. Sure this goes against the idea of a sandbox MMOG to a degree, and there may in fact be better ways to do it, but i think it would make a better game overall.

(Personally, from a design point of view, i love the freedom a sandbox MMOG delivers but at the same time don't enjoy the almost "sit back and watch" that you would get from creating a true sandbox game. So i am almost certainly bias in a sense )




EDIT: http://www.gamebreaker.tv/this-week-in-mmo-35-sexywest/ about 9/10min in they talk about Bioware founder Greg Zeschuk and his take on the "rules" WoW has set out. Would rather find the direct link but they didn't give one (its just a discussion show really so not that "factual"), may be a bit off topic but it's on a similar vein i think.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1298069028' post='4776113']This is pretty much exactly what WoW does.

Untrue.

In before "why is it untrue". Figure it out for yourself lazy... And while you're at it figure out why Sandbox MMORPGs are different to Themepark MMORPGs if you can.. And also try and figure out the difference between selectively limiting help information and limiting gameplay options..
[/quote]

So your answer is, "That's not true, but I won't tell you why."

Obviously if you don't decide to make any choices it will feel on rails, but that's the choice, or lack thereof, that you made. The game has plenty of options, and actually rewards you greatly for taking the opportunity to do them. Around level 15-20 you only have a couple places you can go, but by level 45 half the game world is both viable and beneficial for you to experience. After level 30 I don't think I was on one continent for more than a couple hours when I was running an instance.

WoW actually does the majority of its teaching through the UI, via overlays and changing of the info in tool-tips. Very little of it is now through actual in-game characters telling you what to do/quests. The point, at least from what i have read in the thread, if the techniques are similar to other MMORPGs but a discussion on how sandbox MMORPGs can be improved to "catch up" with theme-park MMORPGs.[/quote]
The basic gameplay is done through the UI, but the quests are set up in a such a way to lead you around the world so that you not only know the mechanics but you know the world so you can decide how best to use the mechanics to your full advantage.