WPS is really insignificant for programming. Good programmers type little because they think productive systems directly, not just what fits and then try to make it decent.
However new tech is very important but age doesn't matter as long as you're willing to embrace a carreer in which , to be good, you must be ready to learn all along.
There is so little typing to be done in actual programming vs thinking that today most of my typing is in mails not in programming, i'd say i probably type something along the lines of 50-100 lines of code a day.

Quote: Original post by Anon Mike
What's been difficult is moving away from an environment that at least makes honest efforts at good software engineering to one that is, at least in comparison, almost pure cowboy coding with release cycles measured in weeks at most. Good tool support is completely out the window - tail and grep, while they do get the job done eventually, should be the *last* option, not the first and only. And particularly frustrusting is the lack of good debugger support. Staring at code and "printf-style" debugging are considered state-of-the-art. The lack of time (and management willingness) to do proper testing leads to a never-ending stream of minor bug fixes that simply wouldn't ever have shipped in my old job.

Yeah, I'm 38 here and the statement above has been my experience too. I was kind of surprised that people don't really use debuggers for things like Perl.

Everything being web-based has killed the old software development life-cycle that used to go like this: hey, let's all get together and plan the new version of the software; okay, let's all write a bunch of code; hey, the deadline is coming up -- let's go into crunch time mode; whew, the product is released, let's start all over again.

Now, it's pretty much always crunch time.

I'm 28 and I'm a software engineer (windows technology, not web apps) in the NYC area. I work in finance, which is an industry that certainly cares about software and high-end technology. While I'm not old enough to comment directly on being 40, I've certainly been a part of the hiring process for a number of positions in and around my team(s) over the years.

I can tell you that age is almost irrelevant as long as you remain educated and keep your skill set at a level that allows you to compete in the general market place. Somebody who is 40 has a lot of experience and has simply seen more than I have. They've solved more problems, they've designed more architecture, they've written more code - and as long as that person is up to speed on the technology we use, the experience and age is an asset not a detriment. There are simply too many skills to think about when making a hire to use age against somebody. If you find a firm that you believe eliminates you based on the idea that you're 40 (which is not even old) - you probably don't want to work for that firm anyway.

I find that where many of the older generation run into trouble is refusing to learn anything new or looking down on anything new because they are convinced they know best just because they got used to something fifteen years ago. That is *exactly* how you avoid getting a job. The fact is, better and better tools are developed every day (along with some crappy ones). The younger generation loves it - but in many cases, the older generation would rather just be angry that things change. I can't tell you how many times I've either heard or read people rip on tools/languages/operating systems/etc that they either know nothing about or have never used.

I started programming in my early teens. I do believe that to become the best at something, you need to start when you're very young. An exception to this rule is rare across all skills. How many people do you know that are the best in the world at something they started at age 25 or 30? However, why do you have to be the best? You can easily get a good job and accomplish useful, rewarding things just being very good - which I believe can be acquired having started later in life. As someone else pointed out, programming is a way of thinking. You get it or you don't. If you get it and you work hard, you can become good regardless of your age.

[Edited by - elondon on December 31, 2010 3:15:08 PM]

Well, most of the responses (if not all) came from either USA/CAN or EU. Here in Mexico, you can see it in almost "every" job post.

But wait a minute, I've been living in Spain for some years and I've seen such "age discrimination" in job adds, perhaps not within the IT industry but definitely in stores and such and perhaps that's another thread of discussion, but the point is, in many IT jobs the average age of the team is usually around 30s so, if you're old, you don't fit in the company or team uhmm what's the word for this? ...

Anyway, even if they don't state that for being 40+ you're discarded, that does not mean they would hire you, because many employers would rather hire a fresh young one.

Quote: Original post by VerMan
Anyway, even if they don't state that for being 40+ you're discarded, that does not mean they would hire you, because many employers would rather hire a fresh young one.

While I've not experienced it myself I've had friends who claimed this sort of thing.

The thing about the software industry that is different than most others (from what I can tell given I've never worked outside software...) is that a significant percentage of the people *enjoy* programming. Young people with no families will work long hours for no extra pay because it's fun for them. There are companies that take advantage of this (strictly off the record of course) and will bias against older workers who are more likely to have families and/or lives outside of work. Older people also tend to want more money and/or benefits (particularly medical benefits).

Back on the subject of practical difficulties over 40... Another thing that's been a bit tough for me is that texting/IM and social network sites didn't really exist when I was young. I personally really dislike IM - I find that it's to real-time to do anything else but not real-time enough so that you have dead time while you're sitting there waiting for the other person to finish typing. However, the new college grads will hardly use anything *but* IM so I'm forced to adapt.

Regarding the age and job application


Over 30? Can't apply for job here. Sorry.

And I'm 32 this year. I don't care much about this company though. Their core team resigned and start up their own company There are a lot of stories floating on the internet, but that's not the point.

I just want to point out that in certain country, it's okay to advertise based on age, race, or sex, even for job that's not related to it.

age - 3d animator, 2d animator, read above link.
sex - there was a bookshop that want only woman to become their sale people.
and so on and so forth.

i wrote a joke regarding this in and old version of hugi. looking at above link, i guess certain things don't change.

Why do you people think that programming is only for young people? What possible relationship is there, other than the fact that people tend to hang with people their own age and everyone else is invisible?

I had my first professional job as a programmer 30 years ago (I was in University at the time). For the last couple of years I've been working with leading-edge stuff that you will probably be using in another 12 months or so. I work with people my own age as well as older and younger people. Age really is irrelevant.

Younger people do a lot more bikeshedding and busywork. Older people get sucked into management. There is attrition. So it goes. Assuming programming is a younger person's job is just ignorant.

PS. I am neither fat nor bald.

Anyone who thinks typing skill doesn't matter when programming should try programming on a netbook or touchscreen. Productivity drops dramatically. If you're a hunt and peck typist you are not going to be nearly as productive as someone who doesn't have to spend any time thinking about what their fingers are doing.

tstrimp, I agree with you completely. I own a netbook that I got for free by getting a two year student broadband account. I use it as a reseach tool, as in read e-book, website, downloading things at library (which 5 to 10 times faster than by broadband connection. sad, i know).

i rarely write things on it, my fingers really cramped, my eye crampled.

i think netbook is one of those things that business user use to show things. at the office they might connect to external monitor and usb keyboard. at other places they just connect it to projector to show their powerpoint slides, etc.

netbook is also good to bring your work home (which is bad, but not if your company is one of those allow for working from home.) so that you may have another external monitor and usb keyboard. if you ask why not using own computer? well, software licensing, data security, and other myriad problems may occur.

i own a laptop and i know how heavy it is (certain model). netbook is good for a lot of things. just use it for what it do best.

i myself own d-link kvm switch, so i can work on my netbook or laptop using the same monitor and keyboard i use for my everyday work, all at the same location.

tstrimp, while i agree that using netbook on it's own is causing productivity drop, i still agree on the thinking is more important than typing speed.

the problem is that it's not the fact that writing is hard i cannot concentrate and think, it just that after i think and wanted to write, it just a pain.