Re: dr Jack

Quote: Currently I think that there could be no story without conflict.
I accept the possibility, but for now I'm not persuaded.

For a starter, consider slice of life stories, stories about travel, stories about architecture, food, art, etc, the author is expressing an experience, providing history and perspective (descriptive stories, fictional or non fictional). The author writes to communicate an experience, and that experience need not contain any conflict.

If I tell a story where I discovered an excellent local restaurant by chance during a travel, I describe to you the orders we made, and how the tastes compare to what we knew.

Could you justify that it is not a story?
Could you justify that it has a conflict?

In the above story (if you accept that it is a story), the object of discovery could be many things:
o A gem
o A nice location
o A perspective
o A friendship
o ...

Although I don't believe that it is necessary for a character to develop in a story, a character could develop in without a conflict. Grandma tells you something a perpective about life and you learn it. Where is the conflict?

(When I don't mark the definition it is because I am using it in a way that would make sense in all definitions of conflict so far.)

The attraction, is built more on the quality of the object being found instead of what trouble or struggle that a character might went through to find it (because there could not no struggle at all in discovering it).

Perhaps people think that stories without conflict would be uninteresting because the quality of the message that is independent to the conflict is too low in those stories. That gives the false conclusion that if a story has no conflict, it would have nothing.

You might say, but if you just talk about the message, wouldn't the story end in a sentence? That depends on how much philosophical content the story has doesn't it? If a story can be distilled in a single sentence in terms of its philosophy, then to a reader who cant get stimulated by the conflicts, the story only worths a sentence, doesn't it? To that audience, it is futile trying to add conflict, that is just filler, the content needs to be expanded at the philosophical level. Different viewer look for different 'active ingredient' in a story.


Stripping the conflict off a story:

Story: The Turtle and the Rabbit

[A] The Original Story: Rabbit challenges Turtle for a race. Shortly after the race starts, Rabbit sees that Turtle is so far behind and decides to take a nap. In the meantime, Turtle kept its steady pace toward the goal. After the nap, Rabbit wakes up and sees that Turtle is almost done. Rabbit tries to catch up but it was too late.

The Stripped Story: Rabbit and Turtle start at the beginning of the road at the same time. Rabbit is fast, Turtle is slow, but Turtle reached the end first because Rabbit took a nap.

(There are different ways to Strip a story, in this particular way, I am specifically stripping off the conflict, therefore the interaction between Rabbit and Turtle is gone, and that is done on purpose.)

[C] Playing using a stripped story: Rabbit and Turtle start at the beginning of the road at the same time. Rabbit is fast, Turtle is slow, but Turtle reached the end first. (The story ends there.) (To the player:) There is a reason, do you know why?

In [C], consider how you would justify whether there is a conflict in the story. Note that in [C], there is no race, there is no assumption that Rabbit and Turtle know each other.

[Edited by - Wai on January 1, 2011 11:32:34 AM]

Learning and discovery have conflict inside. Internal and external.
Goal = knowledge? Conflict: you need to find teacher, time, open mind and many other qualities. Internal conflict: old perspective of life against new perspective. You can make these conflict easy... but also deadly difficult if you're a good storyliner.
Goal = discovery? Conflict: missing, distance, possible obstacle. And anything you want.

Using other definition of conflict, yes. There could be no conflict in discovery and learning.

Evolution of the character is another topic.
It doesn't seems to me natural an evolution without a conflict (term used in fiction). I think we can force it in a story, but this can create congruence issues.

Quote: The attraction, is built more on the quality of the object being found instead of what trouble or struggle that a character might went through to find it (because there could not no struggle at all in discovering it).

A prize (like finding a marvellous) in a game could be really attractive and make the story become secondary, but here we talk about game design and not story.

Quote: In [C], consider how you would justify whether there is a conflict in the story. Note that in [C], there is no race, there is no assumption that Rabbit and Turtle know each other.

Let's try to not confuse the story characters with the public.
The characters maybe don't know each other. The public knows them if they're in the story.

Let's go to extreme. We can create a scientific treat of the path of meteor. Also of a collision of meteors.
But there's a difference between an assay and a story.

Again, we can change usual definitions, but for now I like the ones used in fiction.

Re: dr Jack
Learning and Discovery

There are many situations where learning is achieved, some would match the pattern of conflict[2], some would not. A type of learning that matches is liks this:

Goal = Knowledge
Obstacle = Lack of teacher, Misconception, Distracting contradiction, closed-mindedness

You could say something similar to discovery. If a character is trying to discover something purposefully, the situation could be easily mapped as a conflict[2]. However, sometimes a discovery is made not on purpose. These moments of coincidental inspiration sometimes can't be framed as a conflict.

Consider this situation:
"You are walking down the street and you discovers a gold coin."
Goal = ?
Obstacle = ?

In terms of the concept that a story always has a conflict, the problem with discovery is not whether it could pose a conflict, but whether it is always a conflict. Note that there are two concepts that are in question:

o The definition of conflict
o The belief that a story must have a conflict

<hr/>Character

Quote: It doesn't seems to me natural an evolution without a conflict (term used in fiction). I think we can force it in a story, but this can create congruence issues.

I agree that most of the time a character learns from a conflict, but learning without conflict may be more natural than you think. E.g. Your parents taught you about a religion/tradition and you grew up believing/practising it. Again, the question is not whether character change can be a result of a conflict, but whether all character change is a result of conflict.

Quote: Original post by dr Jack

Quote: The attraction, is built more on the quality of the object being found instead of what trouble or struggle that a character might went through to find it (because there could not no struggle at all in discovering it).

A prize (like finding a marvellous) in a game could be really attractive and make the story become secondary, but here we talk about game design and not story.

Quote: Original post by dr Jack

Quote: If I tell a story where I discovered an excellent local restaurant by chance during a travel, I describe to you the orders we made, and how the tastes compare to what we knew. [...]

The attraction, is built more on the quality of the object being found instead of what trouble or struggle that a character might went through to find it (because there could be no struggle at all in discovering it).

A prize (like finding a marvellous) in a game could be really attractive and make the story become secondary, but here we talk about game design and not story.

I think you are confused. I was still talking about the story. There are many ways that a story exists in a game, taking different roles for the game. Some roles of a story in a game include:

o Explanation
o Description
o Conclusion
o Clue
o Puzzle
o ...

Quote:

Quote: In [C], consider how you would justify whether there is a conflict in the story. Note that in [C], there is no race, there is no assumption that Rabbit and Turtle know each other.

Let's try to not confuse the story characters with the public.
The characters maybe don't know each other. The public knows them if they're in the story.

What are you trying to say? I said that Rabbit and Turtle did not need to know each other to show that the story itself has no conflict. In your definition of Conflict[2], a story has a conflict[2] if it has a character with a goal and an obstacle. In that example, Rabbit and Turtle are characters. What are their goals and obstacles with respect to the conflict[2]? What is the conflict[2]?

Quote: Let's go to extreme. We can create a scientific treat of the path of meteor. Also of a collision of meteors.
But there's a difference between an assay and a story.

In your definition, what is the difference between an essay and a story? Say you met a friend and he start telling you what happened last night when he saw a meteor shower, how do you determine whether what he said is an essay or a story?

I am not suggesting that there is no difference between an essay and a story. I am questioning the relevance of your point to the argument. For your argument to be valid, you need to establish the connection that the Rabbit-Turtle story above is only an essay, but not a story. If you don't establish that link, you are just setting up a strawman--a target that is easy to attack that has no actual relation to the real target that needs to be attacked to disprove an argument.

Quote: Again, we can change usual definitions, but for now I like the ones used in fiction.

I just want to point out that I change usual definitions because they are wrong, ill-defined and not useful. I am definitely not changing it just because I feel like it. I don't feel attached to the usual definition because it is perfectly easy for me to discuss using any definition. Because I find it easy for me to use any definition of your choice, I don't have a problem discussing the flaws of the usual definition using your definition. However, for that to happen, you need to understand your definition and stick to it. Otherwise the discussion would just repeat like this:

I: If a story must have xxx, how do you define xxx?
U: (You state some definition)
I: According to your definition, aaa is not xxx, is it?
U: It is not.
I: Here is a story that has aaa but no xxx otherwise, therefore a story doesn't need xxx.
U: No, aaa is actually an xxx.
I: Then how do you define xxx?

... After some more rounds

I: If you define xxx like that, do you agree that xxx means the same as "storiness", where a story must have 'storiness' to be a story, and 'storiness' is defined as the quality that makes something a story? If that is the case, how do you determine whether something is a story? What rules do you use to tell whether something is a story?

I put that as a forecast so that we could skip the intermediate if you want to go that way. Perhaps you could answer these question:

In your definition, is this a valid statement?:

"The conflict of this story is that the reader doesn't know the ending when he starts reading, and must keep reading till the end to know the ending."

Consider this:

Title: Zebra's Party

Once upon a time the zebra has a party.
His first guest is the lion because the lion is the king of the safari.
His second guest is the elepant because the elephant is the biggest on the safari.
His third guest is the giraffe because it is the tallest on the safari.
Last but not least, the zebra's fourth guest is the lemur, because the lemur is his best friend.

Is this a story? If so, what is the conflict?



Mystery

The question was: What else could a story use to hook a player without using a conflict? These four things were listed as possible approaches. So the question now is: What would a story look like if it uses mystery without using conflict to hook a player?

Since it is obvious that it can be done in def[3], the question is asked in terms of def[1,2]

Thoughts about this approach:
o The story contains a mystery that entices the player, but not any character in the story. The mystery exists only in the player's perspective.
o One way to create such a mystery, is to show the player an uncommon ending caused by a logical sequence of events. It is a mystery to the player because the player does not know the entities involved.
o The story may not have any character development.
o The story can be told as a series of flash backs to give clues to the player
o ...

Learning
There's always a conflict if there's an action.
Yeah, sometimes is so little that is really really easy.
Goal: Does the character want to learn or not?
He can't don't mind. Maybe he choose inconsciously, but for us don't matters.
If he has the option learn or not learn he has a choice. If he learn he needs to apply. Maybe not so much, but that's a conflict.
Also a child learning to speak faces a conflict.
Lack of time (and sometimes seconds matter)? Maybe lack of good techonology? Maybe he needs to concentrate.

Discovery

Quote: "You are walking down the street and you discovers a gold coin."

Why the character is on the road. Every action as a goal. You can't delete the goal only hide it.
A gold coin is on the street is simply an event. If it's not related to the goal of the characters it doesn't matter.

Goal = ?
No goal = no character.
No character = no conflict.
If you give only information you can create a documentary or an assay.
Not a story.

Quote: What are you trying to say? I said that Rabbit and Turtle did not need to know each other to show that the story itself has no conflict. In your definition of Conflict[2], a story has a conflict[2] if it has a character with a goal and an obstacle. In that example, Rabbit and Turtle are characters. What are their goals and obstacles with respect to the conflict[2]? What is the conflict[2]?

Right. I assumed their goal was to arrive first (without knowing each other).
I repeat the usual: set the goal, you will find the conflict.
In this case you may also find two story not related with each other.

Quote: I just want to point out that I change usual definitions because they are wrong, ill-defined and not useful. I am definitely not changing it just because I feel like it.

No problem with that.
We can use your definitions.

With Def 1 you don't need characters in a story. You may need only meteors. In this case anything that happens has a conflict.
"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction" Newton.
With a little flexibility we can apply it also to internal conflict.

With Def 3 you need 2 characters with contrasting intentions. In this case learning, discovery are no conflict. Also finding a cure for illness, avoiding storms, and evey kind of natural or technological problem.
Easy :).

Quote: "The conflict of this story is that the reader doesn't know the ending when he starts reading, and must keep reading till the end to know the ending."

Nope. That's suspense.

Quote: What would a story look like if it uses mystery without using conflict to hook a player?

Well, I see the problem. For me conflict is a prerequisite for a story, and I use the term "story" to differentiate stories from other types of info communication, like essay or documentary.
I don't know your definition, maybe for you an essay of geology is a story.
The public discover something and there's no conflict. And some people are attracted by them.

Re: dr Jack

1
Case 1:
I described the scenario: "You are walking down the street and you discovers a gold coin."
You said: "Goal = ? No goal = no character. No character = no conflict. If you give only information you can create a documentary or an essay. Not a story."

Case 2:
I described the scenario: "Rabbit and Turtle start at the beginning of the road at the same time. Rabbit is fast, Turtle is slow, but Turtle reached the end first."
You said: "I assumed their goal was to arrive first (without knowing each other). Set the goal, you will find the conflict. In this case you may also find two story not related with each other."

What makes you choose to use your assumption in case 2 but not in case 1?


2

Quote: For me conflict is a prerequisite for a story, and I use the term "story" to differentiate stories from other types of info communication, like essay or documentary.

Title: Zebra's Party

Once upon a time the zebra has a party.
His first guest is the lion because the lion is the king of the safari.
His second guest is the elepant because the elephant is the biggest on the safari.
His third guest is the giraffe because it is the tallest on the safari.
Last but not least, the zebra's fourth guest is the lemur, because the lemur is his best friend.

Is this a story? If so, what is the conflict?


3

Quote: I don't know your definition, maybe for you an essay of geology is a story.

And can you show me why an essay of geology is not a story according to your definition? According to you, an essay about a person (a biography) will always be has conflict, isn't it? But an essay about a geological location cannot have a conflict, is it because it is not character? Are you sure that a geological location can't be a character? Can a person who cannot have thoughts (mentally disabled) be a character? Do you confirm that in your definition, there cannot be a story about a character who has no goal? If the author never states the goal of a character, is the reader allowed to imagine the goal of the character in order to qualify the work as a story? Is a reader allowed to imagine the goal of an object to qualify the work as a story?

Quote: What makes you choose to use your assumption in case 2 but not in case 1?

Mental links I think.
Since you said "Turtle reached the end first" I assumed this element matters as it matters in the original race.

On the other hand when you find a gold I don't assume you want it. Usually gold is a simple element in games, not the main goal.

Quote: Zebra's Party.
---
Is this a story? If so, what is the conflict?

The one who create the character is the one who create the goal.
I can sense the story, but you hid part of the characters.
Is the goal of the Zebra to have a party?
Otherwise, I need specifics.

The story you make me see is: Zebra wanted to give a party and so he invited his friend.
Goal = have fun with friends.

Quote: And can you show me why an essay of geology is not a story according to your definition?

No character = no conflict = no story.

Quote: According to you, an essay about a person (a biography) will always be has conflict, isn't it?

I confirm. A biography of a person has a story inside.
Maybe not a good one, or not well played, but it's still there.

Quote: But an essay about a geological location cannot have a conflict, is it because it is not character? Are you sure that a geological location can't be a character?

On the contrary. You can make sentient everything, especially in fantasy fiction.
You can give a sort of "will" to the land, and give it a goal.
Such in the setting Ravenloft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenloft#The_Dark_Powers

Quote: Can a person who cannot have thoughts (mentally disabled) be a character?

A corpse (unanimated :p) is not a character.
Usually, we've the goal "survive" always inconsciuosly active until alive. But here we're going to extreme definitions and situations.

Quote: Do you confirm that in your definition, there cannot be a story about a character who has no goal?

Confirm.

Quote: If the author never states the goal of a character, is the reader allowed to imagine the goal of the character in order to qualify the work as a story?

Absolutely. And it can be a good thing if well handled, giving the player the power to choose and imagine the goal of the character (Planescape Torment, uh yeah ;)).
It can be also a bad thing if we confuse the audience.

Quote: Is a reader allowed to imagine the goal of an object to qualify the work as a story?

If the object is sentient yes.
If the object is not sentient they can imagine its function. That's another thing.

This thread puzzles me. May I ask what the motive for the thread is? Is there some reason anyone would want a story with no conflict?

I don't like stories with an extremely high amount of conflict, but I think some is necessary to make a story interesting and give it structure so it's not just a pointless anecdote. Games in particular are about the player accomplishing challenging goals; if there is no challenge, it becomes a toy rather than a game. So even in a game with no story, the little story the player imagines about his actions in the game will have conflict.

Example: Plant Tycoon. This game has very little story: you are a gardener with a goal of re-breeding extinct plants from a small island. There's not any conflict inherent in that; there wouldn't be any conflict if it were easy. But conflict emerges in the gameplay. Money is the main element of conflict - you never have enough. Time is the other element - the game is infuriatingly slow. You can speed it up... IF you have a lot of money. Space is also limited - you have a limited number of pots to grow plants in, and an excessively small space to store seeds. Unfortunately these two problems you can't fix, with money or by any other means. The final element is mystery - the plant breeding doesn't work by any sort of realistic genetics, so you have to experiment and study the system before you can start to predict what will result from a breeding.

Re: sunandshadow

Motive 1
o Whereas game stories commonly features conflicts
o We explore alternative elements that make a story interesting

Motive 2
o Whereas people commonly believe that a story must have a conflict
o We question such belief and show what other elements a story could have.

Motive 3
o Whereas people commonly believe that a situation without conflict is not challenging
o We question such belief and show that a challenge can exist without conflict

Motive 4
o Whereas people commonly assume that they understand the terms they use
o We evaluate the definitions of the terms

Quote: So even in a game with no story, the little story the player imagines about his actions in the game will have conflict.

I've never mentioned the distinction in this thread, but I considered it common understanding that player experience is not the story. In the discussion so far, I am discussing the content of the story, not the player's experience when the game is played. I think that this distinction is necessary to keep the discussion objective.

When you evaluate the composition of a painting, you could talk about contrast, color density, object placement, etc... objectively. This discussion is of the same type. We can easily discuss objectively the content of a story because it is invariant to the player's perspective.

Therefore, earlier I pointed out the difference between conflict and attraction. Conflict, as it is discussed so far, is invariant to the player's perspective: it is solely a property of the content. Attraction depends on the player's perspective. This distinction is made to make it easier to focus on one aspect.

In this discussion, I want to focus on games with a substantial amount of story, so for instance, a game like Plant Tycoon (as you have described), is not the type of game I want to discuss.


Re: dr Jack

In my last post, I asked:

Quote: What makes you choose to use your assumption in case 2 but not in case 1?

To that you replied:

Quote: Mental links I think. Since you said "Turtle reached the end first" I assumed this element matters as it matters in the original race. On the other hand when you find a gold I don't assume you want it. Usually gold is a simple element in games, not the main goal.

It occurs to me that perhaps you have no clue what the significance of the questions had. You were replying to each question, but you don't see how the questions are connected. Do you understand why I asked that question in the first place?

Story Content vs Player Experience

Perhaps this is a fundamental concept that must be understood first. Forget about conflict and how it can be defined. Could you articulate in your own words the difference and relation between story content and player experience as I have described above?

After this checkpoint there are additional questions I could ask about conflict and story. But it seems that this question should be first.

Re: sunandshadow
We're simply exploring concepts and definitions.

Quote: So even in a game with no story, the little story the player imagines about his actions in the game will have conflict.

In my opinion, for now, is that a game ALWAYS has a story (and so a conflict).
The story is not always game-design driven, but it could be also player driven (and currently I see many mix of these two types).
I think a good exemple is Civilization, or better Sims. They're two player-driven story.
Especially in "The sims" the player has the freedom to choose between a large amount of goals. I call these type of games "story generator" since they have a strong freedom element (Jesse Schell talk about it on "The art of Game Design", and I agree)

I agree also with you that some game has a minimal story. The usual example of minimal story is the game "Space Invaders".
The only story there is: a spaceship is defending the world from aliens.
So:
- A game doesn't need a complex story, I think the game mainly needs a good challenge.
- A game always have a story. And a good story can help.

Re: Wai

Quote: It occurs to me that perhaps you have no clue what the significance of the questions had. You were replying to each question, but you don't see how the questions are connected. Do you understand why I asked that question in the first place?

Maybe something about the subject "you"?
I think I'm not getting it.

Quote: story content and player experience

Story content are the elements we decide to add in the story to communicate it.
Player experience is how he understand them.
Experience is more important and if Player experience is different from the story we want to communicate, well, we're making some mistake.
But this opens another thread. For now I prefer to assume we're delivering the right elements.

Quote: Original post by Wai
In this discussion, I want to focus on games with a substantial amount of story

Ah. In that case my opinion is that a story which is substantial yet conflict-free can't exist. I believe that conflict is integral to plot, which gives structure to story. I also believe that while small amounts of story don't need much structure (so a minimal conflict-free story might exist), the larger the story the more structure it needs to not collapse into a shapeless puddle of words.