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Original post by frankst N korea doesn't have any chance to use the bomb if some countries leave them alone.

That's not an answer to my question. That's a deflection of the question. It seems to me that as far as leaving North Korea alone, North Korea has isolated itself, except when it goes begging for food with threats of violence. In that respect, North Korea ought to leave "some countries" alone (i.e. South Korea and Japan).

In my view, Hu Jintao needs to convince the regime in North Korea that with millions of starving people it can't afford to pursue the bomb and should give it up. After that, Hu Jintao should work on convincing the North Koreans that Stalinism is a failure, their regime is doomed to collapse, and that they ought to make rapprochement with the south and a smooth transition from totalitarianism their goal.

I suppose I should ask, in your view, is China willing to go to war to defend North Korea? Do the Chinese think it's worth it?

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Original post by frankst N korea doesn't have any chance to use the bomb if some countries leave them alone.

I find this quote interesting, i thought everyone was trying to leave north korea alone / isolated, so why do they need nukes for? Purely for recognition as a superpower? is kim jong il really so crazy to invest resources into nuclear weapons and and bragging rights than feeding the nation he's supposedly leading?

As a "native chinese", what percentage of the people that you know, are aware of the June Fourth Incident?

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Original post by iMalc As a "native chinese", what percentage of the people that you know, are aware of the June Fourth Incident?

ordinary people don't know the entire incident, because the information was blocked seriously till now.

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Original post by Delfi I find this quote interesting, i thought everyone was trying to leave north korea alone / isolated, so why do they need nukes for? Purely for recognition as a superpower? is kim jong il really so crazy to invest resources into nuclear weapons and and bragging rights than feeding the nation he's supposedly leading?

Kim Jong Il has some very serious mental problems. Trying to find reason or logic in his actions is pretty futile. Simply put, the guy is batshit insane and belongs in a closed psychiatric institution rather than at the head of a state.

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Original post by Alpha_ProgDes Do you think that the Chinese government will in the next 50 to 70 years start to resemble the current US/Western Europe style of government in terms of democracy and the rights and privileges it provides? Also, how do the Chinese feel about Tibet and semi-autonomous status? And what do you all do for a good time? Are any of those activites common to the rest of the world or are they Chinese specific?

- I hope so, in the next 50 years the political system will get improved with more democracy.
- Tibet is a part of China now and in history. Considering its unique political/religious system, the government gives their semi-autonomous rights.
- I often watch TV, play games or meet with friends. we don't have the habit of going to bar or dancing. the party we mean is singing (karaok) after meal, specific in Asia:D

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Original post by LessBread Quote: Original post by frankst N korea doesn't have any chance to use the bomb if some countries leave them alone. That's not an answer to my question. That's a deflection of the question. It seems to me that as far as leaving North Korea alone, North Korea has isolated itself, except when it goes begging for food with threats of violence. In that respect, North Korea ought to leave "some countries" alone (i.e. South Korea and Japan). In my view, Hu Jintao needs to convince the regime in North Korea that with millions of starving people it can't afford to pursue the bomb and should give it up. After that, Hu Jintao should work on convincing the North Koreans that Stalinism is a failure, their regime is doomed to collapse, and that they ought to make rapprochement with the south and a smooth transition from totalitarianism their goal. I suppose I should ask, in your view, is China willing to go to war to defend North Korea? Do the Chinese think it's worth it?

it depends if any bomb happens to land on China. AS I know, China is concentrating on the economy and will hardly risk at war. No country is stupid enough to use the N-bomb, it will be a disaster to all of us living in the same planet. so I think the government will work with other countries to handle it.

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Original post by LessBread Quote: Original post by frankst N korea doesn't have any chance to use the bomb if some countries leave them alone. That's not an answer to my question. That's a deflection of the question. It seems to me that as far as leaving North Korea alone, North Korea has isolated itself, except when it goes begging for food with threats of violence. In that respect, North Korea ought to leave "some countries" alone (i.e. South Korea and Japan). In my view, Hu Jintao needs to convince the regime in North Korea that with millions of starving people it can't afford to pursue the bomb and should give it up. After that, Hu Jintao should work on convincing the North Koreans that Stalinism is a failure, their regime is doomed to collapse, and that they ought to make rapprochement with the south and a smooth transition from totalitarianism their goal. I suppose I should ask, in your view, is China willing to go to war to defend North Korea? Do the Chinese think it's worth it?

Asking Hu Jintao to get North Korea to do something is like asking Barack Obama to get Israel to do something. It sounds oh so simple, but reality is a little more complicated.

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Original post by Prinz Eugn Quote: Original post by LessBread Quote: Original post by frankst N korea doesn't have any chance to use the bomb if some countries leave them alone. That's not an answer to my question. That's a deflection of the question. It seems to me that as far as leaving North Korea alone, North Korea has isolated itself, except when it goes begging for food with threats of violence. In that respect, North Korea ought to leave "some countries" alone (i.e. South Korea and Japan). In my view, Hu Jintao needs to convince the regime in North Korea that with millions of starving people it can't afford to pursue the bomb and should give it up. After that, Hu Jintao should work on convincing the North Koreans that Stalinism is a failure, their regime is doomed to collapse, and that they ought to make rapprochement with the south and a smooth transition from totalitarianism their goal. I suppose I should ask, in your view, is China willing to go to war to defend North Korea? Do the Chinese think it's worth it? Asking Hu Jintao to get North Korea to do something is like asking Barack Obama to get Israel to do something. It sounds oh so simple, but reality is a little more complicated.

The way I see it, the complications have less to do with reality and more to do with illusion management. Agnotology: "Culturally constructed ignorance, purposefully created by special interest groups working hard to create confusion and suppress the truth."

If Obama really wanted to get Israel to do something, all he would need to do would be to threaten to cut off the billions of dollars in foreign aide slated for Israel, then take to the bully pulpit to make the case about what he wants Israel to do. With Americans staring down the barrel of austerity cuts, it makes no sense to continue spending billion of tax dollars to support Israeli socialism. The US government sends more money to Israel than it does to many US states. And Egypt too, but you contrasted with Israel so...

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Original post by LessBread The way I see it, the complications have less to do with reality and more to do with illusion management. Agnotology: "Culturally constructed ignorance, purposefully created by special interest groups working hard to create confusion and suppress the truth."

Which is great, but you can pull that card on anything. Reality isn't simple, sorry.

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If Obama really wanted to get Israel to do something, all he would need to do would be to threaten to cut off the billions of dollars in foreign aide slated for Israel, then take to the bully pulpit to make the case about what he wants Israel to do. With Americans staring down the barrel of austerity cuts, it makes no sense to continue spending billion of tax dollars to support Israeli socialism. The US government sends more money to Israel than it does to many US states. And Egypt too, but you contrasted with Israel so...

Even if he could cut off funding (*cough* Congress), it would pretty much demolish his ability to make other policy decisions. Congress does not appreciate complete reversals of policy, especially policy built on decades of work by special interest groups flush with money. You think we have deadlock now?

We actually get some benefit from the Israeli money-pit, since much of the money goes straight to American weapons. Which in Congress-speak directly translates to Jobs. Just another example of Obama killing jobs and playing to his Muslim friends... I can hardly imagine a better Republican bullet point. "Obama kills American jobs and turns the US into a fair-weather friend abroad"

Plus we'll lose one our big levers that we use to get the Israelis to do what we want. The money comes with strings. Without those strings, they might not run hog wild, but our ability to shape their policy will not improve. Settlements, anyone?

I think it would be to our benefit to curtail our support of Israel, but I don't think anyone should be under the illusion that it's easy or wouldn't have any negative consequences.
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As for North Korea, there are several reasons why China is not pushing the regime very hard. Their major concern with the North is keeping in from collapsing, so they're going to keep the kid gloves on.

It would be an undeniable disaster for China if the North collapsed. It would be the mother of all refugee crisis on the Yalu, costing them billions and putting other development on hold (economic development being their number one priority). It would also probably involve US and allied troops moving into the North, which is a little too close for comfort for the PRC government. The North would also be more than likely to eventually be absorbed by the South, putting a democratic government with close ties to the US on the border with the mainland.

Then you have symbolic ties with the communist government. Not exactly easy to admit the system you supported was hopelessly broken and malevolent to boot. Talk about an image-management nightmare.

In conclusion, there are reasons why things are the way they are and why leaders make the decisions they do. Changing things involves more than just -boom!- making a decision. Implementing policy is harder than conceiving it, since implementation in any modern government involves multiple layers of bureaucracy and competing interests.