A very wonkish explanation of the fairness of progressive taxation can be found here: Thoughts on Fair Taxation — Mankiw, Joe the Plumber, Obama, Buffett, Atlas Shrugged, Core Equivalence, and Shapley Value.

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Original post by cowsarenotevil You're acknowledging the fact that some people are born into better situations than others through no action of their own, but you claim that the government should do less to equalize this.

if it were impossible to overcome these hurdles than sure, but it just is not.

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Original post by way2lazy2care Quote: Original post by cowsarenotevil You're acknowledging the fact that some people are born into better situations than others through no action of their own, but you claim that the government should do less to equalize this. if it were impossible to overcome these hurdles than sure, but it just is not.

If all was needed was a little grease elbow then the poor would comprise of only 2% of the population. But it doesn't. As I said, people work hard, very hard and still can't get out of the hole. Do you really think that millions of Americans took a poll and decided to be poor and hope for handouts?

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Original post by way2lazy2care Quote: Original post by Talroth Not everyone HAS parents that they can move in with. Not everyone has an easy life where everything goes well for you. Not everyone has friends and family who can help them out. then they should help themselves. I'm sorry someone might have to work 2 jobs for a month so they can relocate or that they might have to declare bankruptcy to get out of debt. It sucks no lie. That is not a license to fall into a poor me everyone else should work to make my life better attitude.

How do they help themselves? "Work harder"? Magically pull a new job out of their own ass that just happens to be in a part of the country that is cheaper to live in? I don't know if you've noticed this, but we kind of have rather high levels of unemployment across the globe.


Consider this: You have no family to help you out, you have 2 or 3 kids (Yours or siblings). Without government aid, write a budget that pays for food, housing, utilities, and to make things interesting we'll throw in some critical health care. (Don't forget, we're talking about kids here, so you'll need to figure out what you're doing with them while you're at work.)

You have an income from jobs that pay no better than Minimum wage + $1.50 an hour, and you live in a region of above average living expenses. (And don't forget a nice 'fair' tax on all your income!)

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Original post by Alpha_ProgDes If all was needed was a little grease elbow then the poor would comprise of only 2% of the population. But it doesn't. As I said, people work hard, very hard and still can't get out of the hole. Do you really think that millions of Americans took a poll and decided to be poor and hope for handouts?

which is exactly why we have public programs to help those living in poverty. I thought we were talking about the working class.

This argument is jumping all over the place. Who are we talking about? the working class? the working poor, who shouldn't pay taxes? The homeless?

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Original post by way2lazy2carewhich is exactly why we have public programs to help those living in poverty. I thought we were talking about the working class.

The line between those living in poverty and members of the working class is a very blurry and broad line.

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if it were impossible to overcome these hurdles than sure, but it just is not.

It's possible, in theory, for an individual to go up the ladder but some substantial portion of the population must be in these lower, but working classes. They must exist, unless you're advocating communism.

And a lot of things - like health care, which I will bring up because it is relevant and important - are too expensive for most of the working class and that isn't changeable.

The only societies I'm aware of that have successfully dealt with it, did so by taxing, regulating and subsidizing things.

Aren't you the one who moved to Canada?

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This argument is jumping all over the place.

I think you wanted to talk about progressive taxes.

I agree, they're intrinsically wrong.

I would be happy if they were done away with but necessary things must be funded.

Would you be happy with a bulked up corporate tax rate to compensate? Or something else?

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Original post by JoeCooper I think you wanted to talk about progressive taxes. I agree, they're intrinsically wrong. I would be happy if they were done away with but necessary things must be funded. Would you be happy with a bulked up corporate tax rate to compensate? Or something else?

Yes I wanted to talk about that.

I am open to a lot of tax solutions. Most importantly though I think we need to close loopholes in the current tax system that allow people in the upper class to pay so much less. It's just getting so complicated that the fat needs to be cut before anything else is stacked on. It feels like we could lower the tax rate and make a lot more money with a simpler tax code.

If congress decided to take a look at the tax code from the ground up in the next 2 years I'd be both overjoyed and probably dumbfounded.

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Original post by way2lazy2care Quote: Original post by JoeCooper I think you wanted to talk about progressive taxes. I agree, they're intrinsically wrong. I would be happy if they were done away with but necessary things must be funded. Would you be happy with a bulked up corporate tax rate to compensate? Or something else? Yes I wanted to talk about that. I am open to a lot of tax solutions. Most importantly though I think we need to close loopholes in the current tax system that allow people in the upper class to pay so much less. It's just getting so complicated that the fat needs to be cut before anything else is stacked on. It feels like we could lower the tax rate and make a lot more money with a simpler tax code. If congress decided to take a look at the tax code from the ground up in the next 2 years I'd be both overjoyed and probably dumbfounded.

I believe LessBread posted a link where Congress (Democrats) did try to close a tax loophole to pay for the 9/11 first responders bill and the US Chamber of Commerce lobbied to have it killed. And it was so.

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Original post by way2lazy2care If congress decided to take a look at the tax code from the ground up in the next 2 years I'd be both overjoyed and probably dumbfounded.

Likewise on both counts.

Maybe it'll happen though.

A lot of folks got elected into the next congress on platforms about taxes, balancing the budget, etc. and the cuts-for-spending compromise kinda pisses on that.

Actually, is there anything more pressing for them than our fiscal policy?

It seems like a lot of things that have been on the agenda from health care to DADT to the dream act have been passed or tossed - dealt with either way. They even agreed on a NASA plan & budget. (They never get around to that.)

Not to get overoptimistic - Mitch McConnell basically said his goal over the next two years is to win the 2012 election, and I somehow doubt that jives with the goal of fixing real problems - but maybe it will.