I am currently a student of Bits, Pilani-Dubai and am doing my B.E.(Hons) Computer science. Will be graduating in about 8 months. Am interested in getting a game programming degree. Here are the questions that i need answers too.

1) Should i do a B.E. in Game programming or M.S. in Game Programming?
2) Does the Full sail university's game programming degree have value?
3) Are there any other colleges in U.S. that are good and provide the same degrees?
4) Is getting a game programmers job difficult?

I currently have no idea how to make games, i mean proper games. I have played with Java, allegro and sdl a bit and that's it. I really like programming and am interested in game programming.

5) What else can i do additionally to improve my game programming skill?

Thanks in advance for your replies. ^_^

Computer Science degree trumps game degree (on paper). The thing is, most game programs aren't seen as all that reliable. Full Sail from my understanding is pretty decent overall, but if you had a CS degree and about the equivalent portfolio as someone from Full Sail or another game programming / design (especially design) then the CS grad would probably be a better candidate.

For one game programming degrees do gloss over quite a few lower level topics that can be quite essential. A quick glance at the classes required for the Game Development degree at Full Sail tells me they at least have the correct math in there (Calc and Linear) while a lot of other game programming schools only require precalc.

Although I see no algorithms, discrete(yes it can help), programming languages class(can be quite useful to help understand different languages and compilers).

While a CS major could focus their entire time on say Physics programming or AI, a Full Sail student cannot, not just because the classes aren't offered, but because of the time frame of Full Sails classes (late late lab nights). In one sense you are too well rounded from a game design school (they try to teach you some of everything in as short of a time as possible so they can have your money), while not being well rounded enough in the computer science field itself.

Granted there are exceptions to these rules and many people from Full Sail have done well, but in all reality a CS student is preferred with the same portfolio.

edit.

My suggestion, learn game development while in school for a CS degree, and see if some of your professors will let you turn some assignments into something more appropriate to game programming. Most will be ok with this (some may not), there are quite a few resources available to want to be game programmers online, many books (be careful of the shovelware ones that want to just try and jump onto the bandwagon and make money), but most of all, the most learning that will occur, will be when you write a full game.

Quote: Original post by mgs7490
1) Should i do a B.E. in Game programming or M.S. in Game Programming?
2) Does the Full sail university's game programming degree have value?
3) Are there any other colleges in U.S. that are good and provide the same degrees?
4) Is getting a game programmers job difficult?
5) What else can i do additionally to improve my game programming skill?

1. No, you should get a Computer Science degree.
2. "Value" is subjective. Only YOU can make this determination.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Program games.
6. Scroll up and click the tiny "View Forum FAQ" link.

Value is something like [(quality * quantity) / price] in the economics world. So you do the math in your own subjective definition for each of those things.

My 2 cents? No school can prepare you to become a GAME programmer. That has to come from self study, practice, dedication, and a good portfolio to back you up. Most Computer Science programs besides maybe the top schools in the country are just going to be a starting point in your learning from which you can get an entry level job. Problem is, almost no game programming job is considered entry level, so getting in straight out of college will be tough. I bet a lot of Full Sail grads are finding that out.

Since you already have a computer science degree, I wouldn't really recommend going after a separate B.E or B.S. as you will largely be retreading the same ground, albeit from a slightly different angle/focus. If you understand the science well, then the application is simply a matter of practice.

So, in that light, I recommend taking one of two courses of action:
1) Enroll in an MS program focussing on games and/or interactive media.
2) Take a year or so to self-study relevant technologies, techniques, etc -- build a portfolio.

As for FullSail, its not terrible, and its certainly better than most other "game degrees" that are widely known in the US -- most of which are through more traditional trade schools or junior/community colleges and aren't worth anything at all. That said, there are lesser known (or at least less advertised) programs in the US that are better -- Namely there are several games/media focussed degrees offered through traditional universities, such as the GuildHall at SMU, and a program at UCLA among others, and finally, Digipen Institute of Technology.

While Jon already mentioned that FullSail's curriculum is better than many (worthless) game degrees, their curriculum is lacking when put next to any of the university programs or Digipen's. Last I looked, they required something like 3 math classes and didn't offer many more as electives. In contrast, when I attended Digipen for only a 2 year degree I took something like 4 pure maths classes (Algebra, Linear Algebra, Calc I & Calc II) plus digital logic and two or three semesters of applied physics -- over twice the math exposure in half the time! The 4 year program continues with a heavy math and physics focus, and they offer many elective math courses as well -- in fact, you can actually Minor in math at Digipen while pursuing a B.S. with just a couple math electives. The university programs tend to be similarly math heavy with many available electives.

The other thing that concerns me about FullSail over these other (IMHO, better) programs is that they tend to focus on application at the expense of theory -- this shows in the shallowness of their math education, but also in the topics they have chosen to teach over offering more math -- For example they require that students take classes on both Direct3D and OpenGL, both semester-long, when really spending one or two semesters on the theory behind 3D math would create deeper understanding and prepare students better for the next shift in technology. IIRC, they also expose students to tools/engines that are currently popular in the industry such as the Unreal Engine (I believe) -- while this may have value, my opinion is that students would still be better served and prepared by learning the theory and then applying it to create their own solutions. In effect, I believe that FullSail, in the typical case, is turning out industry foot-soldiers rather than preparing them to be future leaders (though there are surely a few counter-examples) whereas the University programs' and Digipen's academic/theory-mindedness is more likely to foster deeper understanding that is less tied to particular engines or APIs, making their graduates more able to adapt and grow on their own.

All of that said, as someone who will already hold a degree with honors, FullSail may not be a bad option for you, even though I would not recommend it for someone who was seeking to make it their primary/only education. If, and only if, you are looking for applied practice in the current industry tools and APIs, and willing to accept that those things will be obsolete quite quickly, then you might want to consider FullSail. Even then, however, I would argue that simple self-study might be better (and certainly cheaper). In any other case I would recommend pursuing an M.S. at either DigiPen or one of the programs at a traditional university.

I will give the exact opposite opinion on a masters, DON'T do it unless you have experience. There may be no entry level position based on work, but there is based on pay. You will do a ton of work in an entry level position, with entry level pay.

The problem is with a masterss you will be seen as over qualified. So without experience to HR you are coming in as an "Entry level" programmer with a master's which normally means that someone expects to be paid more. So a company would much rather hire a new graduate without experience over someone with a masters with no experience just because of the perception that more educated people will demand more money.

Granted there is still a possibility of landing a job after a masters, but in all reality in game development, your "masters" is earned from experience, not school. Mainly because no school will be able to put you through the gauntlet as game development experience will do, the knowledge won't be there either.

If you get your masters in CS from a good university here, you will probably have a lot of opportunities to do the same stuff you'd do at full sail anyway. You'd also end up learning a lot more that will help you in the long run instead of the now.

It'll probably cost a lot less too.

If you have your heart set on game degrees I think Guildhall and Digipen are probably the best actual game design programs/schools around though.

Quote: Original post by JonConley
I will give the exact opposite opinion on a masters, DON'T do it unless you have experience. There may be no entry level position based on work, but there is based on pay. You will do a ton of work in an entry level position, with entry level pay.

The problem is with a masterss you will be seen as over qualified. So without experience to HR you are coming in as an "Entry level" programmer with a master's which normally means that someone expects to be paid more. So a company would much rather hire a new graduate without experience over someone with a masters with no experience just because of the perception that more educated people will demand more money.

Granted there is still a possibility of landing a job after a masters, but in all reality in game development, your "masters" is earned from experience, not school. Mainly because no school will be able to put you through the gauntlet as game development experience will do, the knowledge won't be there either.

Eh, I don't buy it. You're not actually charging that more education isn't a good thing, are you?

Firstly, even very attainable "entry level" positions in the games industry are fairly well paid, so no one's going to starve or struggle to pay back student loans. My starting salary was around $42K/yr directly out of only two years at Digipen. One of my roommates went the full 4 years (at the time there was no M.S. there) and started at $66K/year at one one the most successful/well-known developers in the world -- he also bought a house with his last bonus check.

Its true that there is a lot of on-the-job learning, as there is with any industry, but its been proven statistically time and time again people who take their careers furthest are those with greater traditional education -- notwithstanding the few outliers which went very, very far with no/little traditional education at all.

Furthermore, with the economy the way it is right now, I would be in no rush to get into the job market -- very few people are being hired right now, be they M.S., B.S. or otherwise. With that in mind, who would you rather be in two years, the M.S. student with tons of recent, advanced coursework / independent study fresh out of college, or the guy with a 4 year degree who's skills have languished and atrophied for 2 years in a job you are overqualified for, if you've been able to find any job at all? If the economy is back in full swing in 2 years time, I think people who decided to stay in school those two extra years are going to find themselves very much in demand as the industry rebuilds.

Likewise, no one but Burger King and other service-industry jobs worry about folks being "too qualified" -- that BS only scares off industries with high voluntary turn-over. Development houses want to build up talent within their ranks and keep those people around, so people with extensive understanding and huge potential are really the ideal hire unless they run a shop full of code-monkies, in which case you probably don't want to work there anyhow.

Finally, most Master's programs (certainly Digipen's) are very much free-form. Basically you take whichever electives you wish and design/develop/publish your thesis work in an academically rigorous way under close observation/tutelage by an instructor. There's very little of the usual structure and few required courses. Then at the end you've published work, usually novel, and might even hold patents (jointly with the institution, usually). If you're not a stand-out candidate then, you've done something terribly, horribly wrong.

I have no idea if it's good or not but there is a concentration for game design in CS at George Mason Uni.

Quote: Original post by Ravyne

Quote: Original post by JonConley
I will give the exact opposite opinion on a masters, DON'T do it unless you have experience. There may be no entry level position based on work, but there is based on pay. You will do a ton of work in an entry level position, with entry level pay.

The problem is with a masterss you will be seen as over qualified. So without experience to HR you are coming in as an "Entry level" programmer with a master's which normally means that someone expects to be paid more. So a company would much rather hire a new graduate without experience over someone with a masters with no experience just because of the perception that more educated people will demand more money.

Granted there is still a possibility of landing a job after a masters, but in all reality in game development, your "masters" is earned from experience, not school. Mainly because no school will be able to put you through the gauntlet as game development experience will do, the knowledge won't be there either.

Eh, I don't buy it. You're not actually charging that more education isn't a good thing, are you?

Firstly, even very attainable "entry level" positions in the games industry are fairly well paid, so no one's going to starve or struggle to pay back student loans. My starting salary was around $42K/yr directly out of only two years at Digipen. One of my roommates went the full 4 years (at the time there was no M.S. there) and started at $66K/year at one one the most successful/well-known developers in the world -- he also bought a house with his last bonus check.

Its true that there is a lot of on-the-job learning, as there is with any industry, but its been proven statistically time and time again people who take their careers furthest are those with greater traditional education -- notwithstanding the few outliers which went very, very far with no/little traditional education at all.

Furthermore, with the economy the way it is right now, I would be in no rush to get into the job market -- very few people are being hired right now, be they M.S., B.S. or otherwise. With that in mind, who would you rather be in two years, the M.S. student with tons of recent, advanced coursework / independent study fresh out of college, or the guy with a 4 year degree who's skills have languished and atrophied for 2 years in a job you are overqualified for, if you've been able to find any job at all? If the economy is back in full swing in 2 years time, I think people who decided to stay in school those two extra years are going to find themselves very much in demand as the industry rebuilds.

Likewise, no one but Burger King and other service-industry jobs worry about folks being "too qualified" -- that BS only scares off industries with high voluntary turn-over. Development houses want to build up talent within their ranks and keep those people around, so people with extensive understanding and huge potential are really the ideal hire unless they run a shop full of code-monkies, in which case you probably don't want to work there anyhow.

Finally, most Master's programs (certainly Digipen's) are very much free-form. Basically you take whichever electives you wish and design/develop/publish your thesis work in an academically rigorous way under close observation/tutelage by an instructor. There's very little of the usual structure and few required courses. Then at the end you've published work, usually novel, and might even hold patents (jointly with the institution, usually). If you're not a stand-out candidate then, you've done something terribly, horribly wrong.

I am not saying more education is bad. I am saying for an entry level position more education is seen to be an over qualification (basically meaning they don't want to pay you more for something that they could pay someone less to do). More education is great for personal growth, but it can hinder professional development in certain fields (one being the game industry since experience not education is the deciding factor).

Your post seems to be talking in general, which is true, the more education the better. In the game industry though, education is only to get your resume past HR, after that its the appearance of ability (portfolio) that opens up opportunities. With a master's and no experience in the game industry you are seen as under qualified in experience, and over qualified in pay scale (like I said generally the more educated the more money someone would ask for). Which means you are on the same page with someone that has a Bachelor's in Comp Sci in experience (so to them will require the same training and everything else) but you would require more pay for the same exact job, which is limiting.