So as the title says.

What makes a good system? Levels? Skills? How does this effect a class structure? What makes a good class selection?

There was a lot of discussion about this on MMO blogs a few years back. Check out this post, which also links to a bunch more.

Personally I can't stand class-based games anymore. Classes force people into restricted portions of a pie. This is especially bad when you're forced to choose your class right at the start of the game. How do I know that I'm going to enjoy playing a warrior? How do I know that I'm going to enjoy playing a healer? Will playing a healer mean I'm weak when it comes to offense? There are many common stereotypes which only add to the problem... especially when those stereotypes don't hold up when you expected them to.

For example, I played a game recently that had the standard 4 starting classes:

Warrior
Magician
Thief
Archer

I picked a Warrior because I thought I'd be doing a lot of damage and I love the combat aspect and basically just love doing a lot of damage. Turns out, the Warriors in this game have some of the weakest damage output. They are basically "tanks" and that's it... The worst part is that the game mechanics are set up in such a way that tanks are totally worthless... All that mattered was DPS. Defense and health didn't matter because every class ends up with tons of health and defense anyway, and you can quickly full heal with inexpensive items.

Had I known this from the start, I would have never picked the warrior class. But without doing a bunch of research ahead of time, I didn't really have much choice.

Even if the warrior class turned out to be exactly as I expected... what happens when I grow tired of being a warrior? Well I guess I could make a new character and pick a different class. But then I'm abandoning my "main" to play this "alt"... and if I want to experience a bit of everything, I need to make 4 different characters... which is great if you've designed the game as a grind and want to make players play your game basically 4 times.

I would much rather prefer a classless system, or at least a system where the player can lean towards a particular class type, but always have the option to lean towards something else. For example, instead of forcing the player to choose a specific class, let them pick a weapon they think will be the most fun to use. This weapon could be a bow, a sword, a wand, a dagger, etc... This way, the player is already starting to lean toward a particular play style.

If the player starts with the sword and then finds out they'd rather play with some range and use a bow, it's as easy as selling the sword and buying a bow. Now the player leans more toward an "archer" class, yet is not labeled. Perhaps over time, the more "archer" like the player is, the more they will lean toward that class. Picking up new archer type skills. But if they decide "hey, I want to use some magic now" then they can put away the bow and dive into the world of magic.

Maybe leaning toward a certain class type will strengthen that area and weaken the others. That's fine.... but locking a person into one class from the start is just a design mistake in my opinion. If you're not fond of giving up the class system entirely, you can always use what I described above until the player reaches a point where they've played a certain style for so long that the game offers them a chance to class themselves. As if to say "you seem to like stealing and moving quickly and using smaller weapons... would you consider classifying yourself as a Thief?"

I mean, not asking in those words exactly... but you know... the game would be able to tell what the player prefers after a while.

The great thing about being a jack of all trades is that you can be far more useful in the game environment. You can play any role at any time and not worry about "oh crap we need a healer". I'm not saying everyone should be a warrior thief arrow shooting magician... but it would be nice to say "well we need someone to be the dedicated healer in our party" and then you take on that role... and maybe the next raid or whatever you can be the dedicated melee guy. Players could choose to class themselves to make the party more like a "team" of specialists instead of a bunch of generalists.

"You be the warrior, I'll be the range, he can be the healer, she can use magic to shield us" etc.

It just opens more doors, in my opinion. You're not stuck down one path. Best of all, you don't have silly unrealistic "you're a warrior you can't hold a bow" type situations. It's literally as though you've been programmed to do one thing and nothing else. "Beep... boop... I am a magician, using a pointy weapon does not compute"

Why can't a warrior use a thief dagger? Are his hands too large and blistered from wielding that battle axe? Why can't a mage use a sword? Are her hands too dainty to heft it? I can understand that someone who spends all their time casting magic spells might not make the best archer... but if your system allows it, with time they could become skilled at shooting a bow as well. At least give them the chance to pick it up and try.

Trying to maximally enable role-playing and immersion? Skill system instead of classes. Lock character into choices for good. Allow decisions that cripple the character.

Trying to make a tactics game with stats and story (exactly what most so-called "RPG" games are) but make it really good? Classes. Either allow changing class and other choices at the drop of a hat, or make sure the game is still fun to replay the second and third time. Don't allow decisions that cripple the character too badly.

In either case, don't allow insignificant choices. Never, ever put in grinding. Several of Konidias' grievances towards classes were due to these ubiquitous design faults of the "RPG" genre and not actually due to classes.

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Original post by mpiersant So as the title says. What makes a good system? Levels? Skills? How does this effect a class structure? What makes a good class selection?

Whenever someone mentiones skill vs class system a fan-boy war escalates. The most important thinh about fan-boy wars is, that there will be never a solution which satisfied both sides and there're enough people loving either the first or the second aspect.

To answer your question: there's no "good" system, but, whatever you choose, there will be enough people loving your system (and sadly enough people who hates it :-) )

Almost every big mmorpg these days includes grinding to reach your goals, and you know what? I like grinding. And a game that includes fast leveling as if it was nothing, leveling professions, or no levels at all would bore the shit out of me.

So as our buddy above stated, you cant please everyone, there will be people that like the system and tell you that doing otherwise is the worse decision you can ever make, lmfao.

I prefer the class system, with each class having different strengths and weaknesses.

I find that the idea of not having a class system and letting people build their character however they want is good in theory, but not in reality. The problem is, everyone tends to build their character the same when there are no separations via class. And in these systems, DPS characters run wild. Having pre-defined classes forces variation, and adds additional dimension (and replayability) to a game. As a designer, my goal is to keep a player engaged for as long as possible. Having various classes helps accomplish this goal. I don't know too many people that have replayed a game simply because they wanted to try a different combination of skills in their skill tree (I have never done this).

Frankly, I'm really beginning to hate this idea of 'design the game to let the user do whatever they want'. Its crap. The old school final fantasy series told you what spells you learned as you leveled, as did Breath of Fire. Contra only made certain weapons available as you moved through the map, as did smash tv. Zelda gives you a certain item per dungeon plundered, as does Metroid. These games are very linear, but offer some of the best game-play experience.

There are a few skill-tree based games that I do enjoy, but are also class driven. Both league of legends and the Diablo series come to mind. But again, they have classes.

So, what makes a good system? I say classes with different strengths (tank, physical dps, magical dps, healer, spy, speed, etc), the ability upgrade their power (either user defined or auto), and the ability to mod your characters with weapons and armor.

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Original post by arthurviolence Almost every big mmorpg these days includes grinding to reach your goals, and you know what? I like grinding. And a game that includes fast leveling as if it was nothing, leveling professions, or no levels at all would bore the shit out of me.

You don't like grinding. Nobody likes grinding. You explained what you actually like, and it's not grinding. You're just confusing it with grinding.

You stated that you don't like:

- fast leveling as if it was nothing (which means you like leveling to take some time or effort, as if it was something)

- no levels at all (which means you prefer having levels)

Neither of these is a clear indication of grinding. It just means you like to level and you like those levels to mean something. This doesn't mean you have to grind for hours for those levels... It just means you had to do something meaningful (to you) to earn them.

I fully believe that you would enjoy a game with no grind, as long as the levels required some effort to earn, and you felt as though you accomplished something with each new level gained. This is what I've taken from your post... I also feel like you're saying "I like grinding" because you're trying to make a point by throwing a wrench into the gears.

I will continue to stand by my opinion that absolutely nobody likes to grind. They might like things related to grinding, but actual grinding is not rewarding in itself. That's why it's called grinding.

Konidias, for the people that pull the lever at a slot machine in Vegas all day long, would you consider that grinding? I would.

I think its possible to enjoy 'grinding' in the literal sense. The key lies in the positive reinforcement intervals. If the intervals become too infrequent (or the payout too small), then we refer to it negatively as 'grinding'. If you are constantly getting enough random money drops (and especially if there are random item drops), and you can find decently quick ways to level, then the act becomes far more enjoyable. At this point, people tend to stop calling it grinding, although its the same exact task (the designers in these cases have successfully tricked you).

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Original post by Cygnus_X Konidias, for the people that pull the lever at a slot machine in Vegas all day long, would you consider that grinding? I would.

Only if the person isn't enjoying it. It's just a repetitive act. That's not grinding. A grind is when it's no longer fun but you do it just to get to the reward at the end of the grind.

You could say that pulling a slot machine lever all day would be a grind, but if the person enjoys the sounds and lights and pretty pictures, it's no different than flipping the channel on the tv remote.

If you're pulling a slot machine lever all day with the only enjoyment being if you win, then yes, that's a grind. You're not enjoying it... you're only trying to be rewarded from doing it.